HPX-3700 deal

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Erich Roland] “I could care less about MXF files, and if its better or worse in organizing data (I care about what my client wants), and you know what…. most of my customers don’t care about MXF files! “

What do most of your customers shoot for? If it’s broadcast, they will care about MXF files, whether you know it yet or not. I see your point, I guess. What do your clients want?

[Erich Roland] “It’s not about the codec or file system.”

I don’t think you are paying enough attention to the whole production process.

[Erich Roland] “They care about price and cranking out television shows.”

And it is my opinion that a Long GOP file structure will severely limit the speed of the cranking. For post, I Frame is the fastest and most predictable. But I know, you could care less.

[Erich Roland] “They care about price and cranking out television shows. By all means go tell them all what they are missing but you will be pissing in the wind. “

I see it as quite the opposite. Everyone is pissing in the wind, and MXF is a solid wall with no splash backs. If you yourself don’t understand what MXF can deliver, then how are you supposed to educate your customers on the cameras that you own?

[Erich Roland] “They look at the EX camera played back and it looks exactly like it did through the camera before it was recorded. “

Playback is much different than editing and color correction.

[Erich Roland] “You can bet your booty they did lots of research and decided the xd codec and system was GOOD enough for the general populace and if they need more in terms of quality recording for green screen etc then the HDcam is available to step up. “

Hmm, so with Sony you need a less expensive and a really expensive camcorder to get things done. With Panasonic, you buy one camera and get it all done. Why? A better codec. 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 of Sony. I frame vs Long GOP. 100 mb/sec vs 35 or 50 mb/sec. When using AVC-I is 10bit vs 8bit. These things make difference. You seem like you think I make my choices because am I a ‘fan boy’, that’s cool. I make choices on practicality and ease of use. What is it that is going to make sure that I am covered for all of my production needs from shoot to edit to master? At some point I have to choose one or the other, not just on brand name, but on actual concrete reasons, and so do you.

[Erich Roland] “and I believe it was a bad bet. “

You are entitled to that opinion. BluRay as a recording device doesn’t feel like something that’s going to be around in 10-15 years either. Also, that laser? Not the best way to reliably record all facets of production. SSD is much more robust with no moving parts. SxS is much better than BluRay.

[Erich Roland] “Time will tell, but I would not be surprised to see less models next year and maybe a move out of P2 and towards standard memory cards or another medium altogether”

What do you mean by standard memory cards. Like SD cards? You can do that know with AVCCam, which is a better quality version of Long GOP XDCam, but still highly compressed. SD and SDHC cards are USB speeds at the most. This is not fast enough to sustain codecs that are 100 mb/sec. The cards will need to be of better quality, hence the prices.

It sounds to me, more and more, that you want to be able to go to Best Buy and get a camera to shoot your next production with $10 ‘memory sticks’. I still have faith in this industry that we aren’t there yet. With the newer technology coming out today that is all data and all IT based, this opens up a huge new world of collaborative production. This is exciting to me, but maybe I am weird as most people perceive this as a threat.

[Erich Roland] “There isn’t one person out there who hasn’t complained about P2 card prices, and now the public can work around this obvious problem.”

With the new e-series cards, this problem has seemed to have been alleviated. SxS isn’t exactly cheap.

[Erich Roland] “You need only open your eyes to see the after market products that will allow consumers to work around the expensive P2 cards and record to a Convergence deck or AJA recorder in high quality codec’s (including I-frame)”

Believe me, Erich my eyes are wide open. I worked the AJA booth at NAB this year gabbing all day every day about the Ki Pro. Can’t get that at best buy either.

[Erich Roland] “(or not… its a bit painful how you guys miss the main points and harp on something that’s not important). “

Its hard to discern what you think is important, except that somehow Panasonic is at fault because they have a created a system that you personally have not taken the time to understand or care to educate your clients about.

I have worked with Sony material, I have worked with Panasonic material. I like one better than the other. If this makes me a fan boy, then so be it. I am not ashamed. My personal choices that I make for our production needs make a lot of sense to our everyday workflow, peace of mind and sleep. I don’t think we made the wrong decision, as a matter of fact as every day passes, I realized we made the exact right decision at the time. But this is for us, and that same decision might not be the right one for you. I admire Panasonic’s confidence in going all P2. This says to me that they themselves stand behind the codecs and MXF implementation that they choose to create and use. When someone has been floundering between a few different recording mediums, I find that hesitation as a warning, meaning that company is still trying to figure out what is best. But maybe I am reading that incorrectly. I think the BluRay is an interim technology. People are begrudgingly buying it, but interestingly none of my younger friends are very far away from buying it (unless the own a PS3). They are receiving downloadable HD content that is available to a variety of devices including hand held smart phones. This is the future. And a full IT and data centric workflow is what is going to help bring this future to the present. But who cares…

[Richard Harrington]

Not to stir things up to much…

For the record… Erich is a respected member of the DC community that I have personally rented from a lot.

He is sharing a lot of what he sees (and he rents gear – and shoots – for some of the biggest networks).

Many of his points are valid… unfortunately the market is pretty dumb.

Richard M. Harrington, PMP

Author: Photoshop for Video, Understanding Adobe Photoshop, Final Cut Studio On the Spot and ATS:iWork

[Erich Roland]

my god Jeremy, your like a pit bull and lawyer at the same time!

Here is the problem in a nut shell and you and Gary have both said the same thing. These cameras are like computers with lenses… and every 2 years there will be a faster one… Right?

My premise from the beginning of this thread is that nobody is buying P2 Varicams (not really nobody, but relative to lets say the HDX-900 sales when it first came out). Who is going to invest 45-60k on a computer with a lens that could be worth 7-10k in 2 years? And have to toss a perfectly good expensive camera because its attached to the P2 deck!

You see it has nothing to do with MXF files, but you don’t get the basic economic problem here. People cant see the future in a memory technology that has changed so dramaticly in just the last 2 years, and they don’t want to buy the short end of the “P2 stick” when it all changes again!

Its the crazy idea that this company bet the farm on (not on MXF files, its perfect) but this silly, too expensive memory platform called “P2″… thats what is crazy (my opinion but many agree). Now if P2 cost just a bit more then consumer memory then its a different story. The E series is only slightly better price, but then they are made to Fail… (more marketing stupidity).

And as Ive said before (this is important part, to get to my motivation here in case you missed it)…. I want to have on my rental shelf what my customer wants to rent (period). There… Ive shared my deepest secret, you’ve driven me to it.

But when they DON’T want to rent these expensive P2 cameras I start to examine why this may be. I talk to customers, I look at the market and pricing and come here to share my thoughts. And you turn into Pittbull Garchow and let me know how I have know clue about editing (and you are correct).

But you cant tell me my customers are wrong. They tend to be informed, and when they call me they almost always know what they have decided to shoot with, and its not P2 Varicams, or the 2000, or 3000. This leads me to believe that you are in the minority with your appreciation of MXF files, and that this feature does not carry the weight that you think it should in the general market place.

I say again. We are in a transition period of fast change. Id guess that 5 years from now we may look at this thread and laugh at how we knew nothing about where we would be. To invest in expensive cameras right now is not smart business.

Id be more then pleased to be wrong with my premise and predictions because Ive already bought a bunch of these cameras! Maybe starting next week the phone will ring of the hook for P2 products, but right now the tape Varicams, HDX-900’s and F900’s are working steadily, and the the Ex’s are busy and the 2/3” P2’s are gathering dust.

I rest me case.

Peace to all, and to all a good night.

ER

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman)

[Jeremy Garchow]

Thanks for bringing this up, Richard.

In no way shape or form am I trying to disrespect you, Erich. It’s not what I intend, and not what I do. I am not a well respected member of any community, so perhaps I am talking out of line.

But what irks me is this, this is now the second time you have started a thread aimed at Panasonic when people are calling up your shop asking for tape and Sony. That is probably all your market needs, and that’s all you need to buy. Panasonic isn’t going back to tape, Sony is still holding on a bit, but eventually it will go all tapeless. New cameras being designed right now are not thinking about tape.

I am not a lawyer, but I do own a pit bull. His name is Remy and he’s very good.

This is also a problem I have, Erich. You call me names because I made a smart decision for the business. I find this rather ironic.

[Erich Roland] “People cant see the future in a memory technology that has changed so dramaticly in just the last 2 years”

P2 has been around for way more than 2 years, and it’s pretty much stayed the same. It’s a very solid format. There are now 2 HD codecs and the card sizes keep getting larger. Other than that, a DV file on p2 from 8 years ago, looks like a dv file on a p2 card now.

[Erich Roland] “The E series is only slightly better price, but then they are made to Fail…”

More exaggeration. Everything that has a chip will fail someday, but that doesn’t mean that they are made to fail. The E series cards are made to fill up to 100% everyday for 5 years. John Fishback did the math here:

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/193/876651

[Erich Roland] ” I want to have on my rental shelf what my customer wants to rent (period). There… Ive shared my deepest secret, you’ve driven me to it. “

And that’s what I asked you in my first response. Go for what you know and what makes you money, just stop blaming Panasonic for it. If not, you can at least educate yourself about P2 so you can educate your clients.

[Erich Roland] “But you cant tell me my customers are wrong. They tend to be informed, and when they call me they almost always know what they have decided to shoot with, and its not P2 Varicams, or the 2000, or 3000. “

So stop buying them!

[Erich Roland] “. This leads me to believe that you are in the minority with your appreciation of MXF files, and that this feature does not carry the weight that you think it should in the general market place. “

I see it that people have not truly discovered the MXF format and all it entails. With time, it will make more sense. If opens up vast capabilities in multi-cam production (I presented a workflow at NAB about shooting a 5 P2 camera multi-cam, 8 channel separate sound and no time code, just a clap slate two hours before we started recording. With the help of some MXF tools, I was able to sync over 6 hours of footage in about two minutes), cataloging and metadata for both archive and play out. No, your customers aren’t wrong, you can’t be wrong about what you don’t know.

[Erich Roland] “To invest in expensive cameras right now is not smart business. “

I don’t think it ever has been, if you know it won’t rent.

[Erich Roland] “Maybe starting next week the phone will ring of the hook for P2 products”

Maybe it will, but it sounds like it won’t. If you have any questions, we are always here to help.

Jeremy

[Emre Tufekci s.o.a.]

Hi Erich,

I know I am digging a thread thats been ended but I wanted to add a different perspective.

-In the DC market (and I am sure you get a lot of out of state customers) I have found people are very out of touch with the technology aspect of video production and post. They just really dont understand the impacts or advantages of most systems. But again you deal with these people a lot more so I’ll trust your judgement on that.

-The other market that does not affect you is the government sales of P2 material. I know a lot of my colleagues who have furnished their entire facilities with P2. They have studios built around this, with 2700’s, 3000’s and more. For us (federal+DoD) it is a very smart investment because we will use these systems for 10+ years.

We are insulated from the up and downs of the commercial market and our clients are unaffected by what formats we choose to deliver on. For us all that matters is highest quality and durability for the best investment possible.

That probably might have a small impact in the decision making process of Panasonic and Sony.Who knows?

PS: If you are ever in the DC area and need any rentals make sure to look up Erich. He provides amazing service with great customer support. I have always had a great experience with him.

Cheers,
Emre

Emre Tufekci
http://www.productionpit.com