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Grinding back when good clients start to Grind
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[Steve Kownacki] “I think the Pres of BP was watching a sporting event too. Maybe it’s a trend. ”
Do these idiots actually believe they gain respect because they’re watching a sporting event while the rest of us are laboring?
Think they’re slightly detached from reality?
“Are you not entertained!?!?!???
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[Mark Suszko] “”Are you not entertained!?!?!??? “
I was watching U.S. Open Golf on TV last Friday at times during my work day, but I didn’t alert all my clients to the fact, nor did I suggest to them they should give me any special treatment because I was watching. Heck, maybe I should have demanded overtime or even golden time, because I completed a few things after 5pm and it was officially the weekend?
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
EPK Colorist – UP IN THE AIR – nominated for six academy awards
A forum host of Creative COW’s Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.
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>>BTW another thing clients can do is chew up your time in back and forth unnecessary conversations. One has to measure time in total in figuring the value of the work. I have other work to do and I may not be able to talk to him at his convenience on what I consider and unpaid bill at this point. << It's so easy to fall for this, though. I have had too many situations (especially this year) where I have spoken with a potential client, then attended a meeting with her higher-ups, then presented multiple estimates (and sometimes full proposals!), hoping to land business. It gets really easy, the more you feel invested with someone, to give them huge amounts of back and forth, unnecessary conversations for free. But like anything, you (and by you, I mean me, actually!) need to do like you've done and set a line in the sand. Once they cross it, they're officially a grinder and not worth the time. --------------------- http://www.patrickortman.com
Web and Video Design -
[Patrick Ortman] “It gets really easy, the more you feel invested with someone, to give them huge amounts of back and forth, unnecessary conversations for free.”
Hear, hear. I was just thinking about this the other day.
My business model is to charge by the day for shooting and either by day or hour for editing. Pre-production sometimes as well. But what about those many minutes that are spent on other, necessary activities associated with shooting and editing? I spend untold hours on email and phone conversations with clients, planning, reacting, requesting materials, searching the Internet, making suggestions. I can’t even begin to estimate the number of unbilled hours.
I’d be curious how others handle the unbilled-time problem. I know that lawyers bill in tiny (six minute?) increments, using dedicated software for tracking phone calls, photocopying, etc.
But the rules of the game have to be set up front.
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I take all my work time into account when working out the business model for my rates. Generally I’d recommend you need to make all your targeted income in a week with 20-25 billable hours. In other words your rate should bring in your full target on 20-25 assuming you work 40-50 hours a week. In other words the rate for 20 hours billable assumes 40 hours of work.
There’s a huge amount of unbillable work ranging from client communications, marketing, sales (especially if you’re doing your own sales), equipment maintenance, education, accounting, etc. Of course if your income is high enough you might pay others for some of that but if you’re “mom & pop” you have to have time to do all that as part of your facility work.
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Bob…
We basically have three rates in our shop… an hourly rate for shooting, an hourly rate for editing, and a catch-all hourly rate for “pre-production.”
That pre-prod rates includes any and all time for just about anything that happens before we pull trigger on the first shoot… writing, concepting, casting, making phone calls, location scouting, research, lining up crews or talent or props, meetings… all that jazz.
Usually a first meeting or contact with a client is gratis… after that, the clock is ticking for any and all work… ESPECIALLY meetings. Some clients are very “meeting happy” and like to meet and discuss things for hours on end, way past the point of productivity. We’re fine with doing that and are happy to oblige if it makes them more comfortable and it’s the way they like to work… but it happens on the clock.
Works for us. Your mileage may vary.
T2
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Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com
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Good points and thanks.
Craig, re billing at a rate that assumes another hour or so of unbilled time: I agree, of course; but some clients’ projects need tons of post-prod. “garbage time” and others take almost none. The ratio of billed to unbilled hours varies tremendously from project to project, and that doesn’t seem fair to the clients who pay the freight for others.
Billing for pre-production, as Todd points out, is accepted practice. Would that projects could be planned so well that pre-production leads to shooting leads to editing. But some projects (& clients) require as much “pre-production type” time after the shoot as before. I find myself researching additional footage sources, dealing with discussions about revisions, rewriting the script — sometimes chewing up most of a day — on unbilled time, for an edit that will take a couple hours. It’s a flaw in my system. I think if I just had a good name for the time, I could bill it.
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Projects that have specific pre production needs are billed as such.
The problem is the number of phone calls and emails in general eat into a day’s work. I find this with nearly every client for me at least. I’m not talking about booked meetings but all the, “let’s talk, I’ll call you, can you explain . . . ” that goes on for what seems like nearly every job I do.
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“…all the, ‘let’s talk, I’ll call you, can you explain . . . ‘ that goes on for what seems like nearly every job I do.”
Oh yeah, we get that all the time too. And we’re happy to give someone a five minute phone call… but if someone wants to yammer on for an hour, they pay for it.
Fortunately we don’t do too many new clients… maybe only three or four brand new ones a month. Most of them are established clients (mostly ad agencies) that we have worked with for years. That helps in that we know which ones are going to be meeting-crazy, and which ones leave us alone. That helps us figure in how much pre-prod time will be needed and will be included in their original cost estimate for the project. With some, we know we won’t need any… with others, we know it’s safe to include 8 hours or so of that. I think with most of our projects we usually count on about 3 or 4 hours of clients meetings, conference calls, etc.
With brand-new clients it’s harder… we just have to try to get a feel for them at our first contact and try to guess whether they are going to need a lot of on-the-clock handholding.
It’s not an exact science by any stretch, but it seems to be the best we can do.
T2
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Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com
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There seems to be missing from the later portions of this thread. While yes, most of us should be able to charge for pre-production meetings, phone conferences, lengthy explanations of simple concepts, etc… for it to work it has to be done from the start. It’s extremely unlikely to be able to successfully add a new category of charges to the estimates or invoices of existing clients where they had not appeared before. However if these potentially “non-billable” items are line items on an estimate from the start of a relationship they are far more likely to be accepted. In my experience. Your mileage may vary. Member FDIC.
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