General question about how people are logging and organizing footage

[Michael Garber]

Agreed. I’ll look back into using markers. My reason for staying away from them was because of the lack of an out point. But it really does seem like it’s the best way to keep it all together. Perhaps a combo of marker and favorite might do the trick for soundbites i know i’m going to use.

Michael Garber
5th Wall – a post production company

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Michael Garber] “Perhaps a combo of marker and favorite might do the trick for soundbites i know i’m going to use.”

That’s exactly how I use it. The marker becomes the descriptor, and the favorite is the range I want to chose from. Most of the time, I usually end up cutting down/modifying that range in the timeline, anyway.

Typically, I use keywords for “bucket” type of organization, and use the favorites and markers for more granular separation of the material.

But, I also find that the Event is very flexible and can accommodate all kinds of different organizational methods, especially when you start adding smart collections.

Jeremy

[Loren Risker]

I rarely use markers, I use keywords for everything. I pretty much just use markers to identify problems or to make notes on the edit.

I’ve done a few similar short formed docs on bands/musicians recently and I’ve come down to this workflow:

I make an event titled something similar to a project. That way when I archive I have one event folder and one project folder.

Every clip gets a keyword based on date or location, so that way I have a 4-5 location bins based on when/where I shot that has everything in it.

I find each project has like 3-4 broad keywords that I’ll come back to – usually interviews, b-roll, performance, graphics. I think having very few broad categories as a starting point is essential. Sometimes I’ll even start editing after I’ve divided it into just these broad categories. It’s very easy to go back and continue to break it down, and if I’ve started a scratch edit it informs what keywords I’ll use for subjects later on.

Then I’ll go through the interviews and make a keyword for every answer I’m given called “answer.” If a subject is talking to the camera, it’s called an answer. I also keyword it with whomever’s name is in the shot. If it’s an obvious subject I know I’ll want a segment on, I’ll add that too. I favorite my favorite quotes, but I know in my “answer” bin I’ll have everything everyone has said broken down into bites. So for example I might call one “answer” clip – “the knockout san francisco, answer, steve, tony, record release” and I know I’ll find it when I look through the location, the answers, the members, or the subject.

Then I go through everything except the stuff I’ve already identified as b-roll and keyword anything that could also be b-roll, so like fiddling around in between performances, actions happening during interviews, etc.

Then I go through all the b-roll and keyword it as much as I can. I keep in mind the keywords I used for the “answers” and try to use a keyword relevant to any “answer” I also favorited. For example if they talk a lot about a particular show, I make sure to label any b-roll from that location/show.

Then it’s all smart collections from there on out. Smart collections are the main reason I use FCPX. When I start editing, there will be some theme that will be an obvious one to work on. So let’s say I know I want a segment on “record release,” then all my interview answers and b-roll are there in a bin called “record release,” and I’ll start by only showing favorites. Or even better, if I’ve already put too much of one person in, I’ll just only look for favorite answers from a band member that I haven’t used much of yet. So smart collection that combines keyword “answers” “tony” “record release” and show only favorites.

I find if I’ve keyworded thoroughly, which usually takes 2-3 passes, then the edit goes very quickly. I’ll generally take one of my favorite bits I caught, something funny, or a stunning shot, and then it’s very easy to work backwards. It’s because of the keywording that I actually dread going back to FCP7 for doc editing anymore.

[Bill Davis]

Sigh.

Back up.

Rethink.

Tags (keywords) are universal, flexible, and as specific or general – as targeted or broad as you wish.

The “interface tags” (favorite, rejected, etc) are just a convenience. “Favorite” could be labeled “blue” and it would have exactly the same weight and function the same as every other keyword.

What does this mean?

It means that if you stop thinking of tags (and markers) as being only what they were in software prior to X – you are very much short circuiting your X learning..

The central reality of X is that nearly all of the work you do in the timeline is just modifiers for the more permanent data that lives in its Events. This is so very unlike Legacy that until you understand it, you’re actually not working “in” FCP-X- you’re working kinda on top of it.

I can’t emphasize this enough.

Until you study how X actually works. How the modules like the Input module, the Event Browesr, Keyword Collections, and the export conventions like the Project Library, and the Share menu – function in concert with their connected Primary storylines – you’re going to be stuck trying to use it like it’s “Legacy with new stuff.”

It is not. My advice is honestly for new X editors to try to spend at least 70% of their time working in places OTHER than the timeline. The timeline is easy. And it’s not where the big power of editing in X lives.

It’s a suite of deeply integrated new approaches, all working together in a new approach to overall editorial flow.

Look, I’m a 20 year editor who’s been working with it nearly every day since day 1. And I’m still discovering interesting new things about the software.

It’s not simple. At all. It requires effort and time to understand.

And the worst thing you can do, IMO, is to try to drive it like you used to drive any other NLE..

FWIW.

“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor

[Tony Sarafoski]

Bill, what would your approach be in a situation like this?

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Bill Davis] “The “interface tags” (favorite, rejected, etc) are just a convenience. “Favorite” could be labeled “blue” and it would have exactly the same weight and function the same as every other keyword.”

To each their own, but I disagree.

You cannot overlap favorite ranges, you can however overlap keyword ranges.

Also, you can sort individual collections or the entire Event by favorites (or rejected, or unmarked, love the unmarked option).

Favorites and keywords work very differently and should be noted as such. Favorites don’t have their own dynamic collections like keywords.

Markers, for me, work very well as I can add metadata searchable text to the marker, and those markers travel with the edit.

I find that the level of detail that I like to put in markers is way too much or specific for a keyword, and favorites are transitory. I can also have multiple markers with information on a clip, and not have multiple keywords of the same clip. It’s just the way I work, and perhaps it’s not that way for everyone.

[Michael Garber]

Bill, I’d like to echo Tony. What are your methods? I have a fairly decent grasp of X and have been studying it since day 1, as well. That said, I see that that there is not one right way to get the job done. By that same token, if you are not careful, I see potential for a project/show/library/etc… getting horribly messed up.

I think that, with 7, Avid and Premiere, people are using time-tested, proven workflow methods. Those methods are currently in formation with X and I’m just trying to get a general consensus from the pros and those who’ve had success with it, such as yourself.

Looking forward to you response and thanks!

Michael Garber
5th Wall – a post production company

[Michael Garber]

Hey Loren,

Thanks for that. Do you have some screen grabs or would you be interested in making a short screen recording tutorial? I’m curious to see your method in action.

Thx!

Michael Garber
5th Wall – a post production company

[Bill Davis]

[Loren Risker] “I find if I’ve keyworded thoroughly, which usually takes 2-3 passes, then the edit goes very quickly. I’ll generally take one of my favorite bits I caught, something funny, or a stunning shot, and then it’s very easy to work backwards. It’s because of the keywording that I actually dread going back to FCP7 for doc editing anymore.”

Well done Loren.

This exposes the central theme I’ve been talking about.

Loren didn’t approach key wording as if it was just an extension of “markers.” He spent time thinking about what the database in X might do – and developed a strategy for using that flexibility to serve his particular style of working.

I’ll do things a bit differently – but certainly no better.

That’s the point. A database – any database – is an incredibly flexible tool. It’s as powerful as you wish to make it. You can make it behave like “power markers” if you like. Or you can ignore it and bemoan the fact that “favorites” don’t work the way you might, at first blush think they should OR – you can explore what this system does allow you to do and maybe surprise yourself with capabilities that the old software simply didn’t feature.

To me “Favorite” is actually “initial temporary tag.” It’s my tool of “first sort” to narrow a range down for each pass. Then I add the tag I actually WANT for that keyword collection, remove “Favorite” and free it up to use for the next temporary sort.

I don’t view “favorite” it as a TAG in itself. For me it’s more a “sorter” to mark out the group I’m interested in at that moment – just until I can change that groups tag to something more meaningful.

And the point of working tags in the Event Browser before you move to the timeline is that TOTALLY unlike “markers” in Legacy – tags set in the EB stick to the assets in the EB and are therefore available for ALL projects, not just your current timeline.

It’s another good example of why, if you try to use X like Legacy and go right to the timeline for all your editing, you’re missing a chance to build a persistent, powerful library of edit decisions in the EB that grows in usefulness the more work you do in the software over time.

Again, nice description, Loren. I can see you’re truly understanding the fundamentals of how the database in X can enable some useful new thinking about clips in the more “connected” state they can reside in inside the X interface.

“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor

[Loren Risker]

I can’t think of a good way to show the method in screengrabs, so I’ll try to do a screen recording session this weekend.

In the meantime, if anyone would like to describe a typical raw footage scenario you encounter I can help you break it down the way I would do it.