Gamma Shift Prob (Exporting DVCpro Timeline to H264)

[Alec Eagon]

I kind of figured that about the QT 7 option. I tried doing the x264 trick with the adjusted gamma and that ended up helping a bit…I think…but I still got way more grain in my videos and a bit of washed out greys…having said that, the Gamma Problem may have been drastically exagerated in the videos I had problems with a week ago because they are extremely low light. (ex. https://vimeo.com/18141080)

I will do a test with the x264 method on vid I am working on with more daylight….however it gets progressively darker as it is at sunset so we’ll see how the blacks look…

Alec E.

Macbook Pro 17″ / 2.16 GHz Intel Core Duo / 2GB 667Mhz DDR2 SDRAM / 300 GB HD 5000RPM / OSX 10.5.8

Editing with: FCP 6.0.6

Working off of a Firwire800 500GB Glyph HD (I believe it is 7200RPM)

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[Dustin Parsons]

I just read the post on byteful.com about x264 – it blows my mind that we have to jump through these hoops to output a video without a gamma shift.

I have a lot of clients I send H.264 videos to and hate that I can’t deliver them what I worked so hard to make beautiful. If I were to get the x264 codec and output using that, can anyone watch it (Mac/PC) using the standard QuickTime app?

Or, does anyone know if I can change the way Final Cut Pro handles gamma?

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Mac Pro | Leopard 10.5.7
2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon | 4GB Ram
Final Cut Pro Studio 2 | Avid Media Composer

[Dustin Parsons]

I just did a test turning FCP Color Compatibility on and off in the QT Preferences with DVCPRO HD footage, and even that shifts.

Image of DVCPRO HD video with FCP Color Compatibility on:
https://tinypic.com/r/dqp4p5/7

Image of DVCPRO HD video with FCP Color Compatibility off:
https://tinypic.com/r/16bzjue/7

So, let me see if I have this right – in Final Cut I’m seeing the colors and gamma as it appears in the first image, however, no matter what I export (DVCPRO HD, H.264, etc…) the clients that I send the final video to will see the colors and gamma as it appears in the second image?

If this is the case, how do I color correct for what for what FCP will output to?

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Mac Pro | Leopard 10.5.7
2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon | 4GB Ram
Final Cut Pro Studio 2 | Avid Media Composer

[Matt Lyon]

Hey Dustin,

I’ll try to answer both your posts in one:

Everything I’ve said only applies to H264 outputs! It really isn’t a big deal … FCP just puts the wrong gamma flag in the stream (actually, the culprit is more likely the Quicktime libraries, but that’s another story). There really aren’t that many hoops to jump through, just install x264 and you’re good to go. Make some new compressor presets and you don’t have to think about it again.

x264 outputs standard h264 compliant video streams, so any app that plays h264 should have no problem playing back these movies (unless maybe you do something really crazy in the settings). x264 is just an open source set of software libraries for encoding H.264 video (kinda confusing, I know).

And yes, I recommend leaving the “FCP color compatibility” option OFF, so you are seeing something closer to what “the client” is probably seeing. (Remember this in itself is a big fat moving target). Remember to set your monitor to 2.2 gamma, because this is how most PCs are set.

FCP was, and still is, designed to work with a broadcast monitor. If you are ingesting DVCPro HD footage and outputting DVCPro HD master tapes, rest assured the “gamma” is not being touched. And you shouldn’t be judging your footage by the FCP viewers; get a broadcast monitor (this comes up a lot on the forum!)

Forgive me as I lapse into “lecture” mode for a second, but working in this business is all about “jumping through hoops” for your clients. Don’t shy away from doing a bit of legwork. Spend an afternoon with FCP, Compressor and a bunch of test patterns and develop a workflow for grading and outputting quicktimes that satisfies your quality requirements.

Matt Lyon
Editor
Toronto

[Dustin Parsons]

Thanks Matt. This gamma shift issue is confusing indeed, but your answers definitely help! And you’re right, it’s my job to figure this stuff out, not the developers.

I would get a broadcast monitor but everything I do is completely digital – P2 cards >> DVCPRO HD >> FCP >> Output to H.264 or FLV for the web – it’s never viewed on a TV or printed to tape. Although, maybe I’m thinking about this incorrectly, if the broadcast monitor displays the gamma and colors the same way Quicktime does when FCP Color Compatibility is turned off then I could use it for color correction, otherwise it wouldn’t help me.

I’ll give x264 a shot. Thanks again for the help!

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Mac Pro | Leopard 10.5.7
2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon | 4GB Ram
Final Cut Pro Studio 2 | Avid Media Composer

[Dustin Parsons]

I just tried the x.264 codec and it works beautifully. The video outputs exactly how it appears in Final Cut and checking the FCP Color Compatibility in QT does not change it’s look so I know that everyone is seeing the same image. Whoohoo!

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Mac Pro | Leopard 10.5.7
2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon | 4GB Ram
Final Cut Pro Studio 2 | Avid Media Composer

[Alec Eagon]

for some reason x264 won’t work in my FCP even though it is correctly installed….but exported 8-bit, then opened it in mpegstreamclip and exported x264 it was fantastic…I also went a step further and imported the MPSC x264 file into Compressor and then exported to MP4.

The x264 export from Mpeg Streamclip is bright but it looks fantastic…on Vimeo it looks almost better and has less grain than the original file on FCP.

The Compressor MP4 export has much richer blacks but has more grain….hmm…but looks fantastic on Vimeo as well.

Problem pretty much solved…low light was likely my biggest obstacle when dealing with videos like this: https://vimeo.com/18143666

Thanks to everyone!

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[Matt Lyon]

Thanks for the follow up Dustin. I’m glad it is working for you! I wouldn’t be surprised if workflows like yours are the fastest growing segment of the market. Let’s hope Apple takes some steps to address these issues in the next release of FCP.
You might also want to consider getting a cheap windows/Linux dual boot box for checking your movies on other OS’s, player software and browsers (similar to what web developers do for checking their sites)

Matt Lyon
Editor
Toronto

[Dustin Parsons]

Problem pretty much solved but I’m running into the same issue as you with having to encode multiple time. My workflow is: Export DVCPRO HD (or whatever it was shot at), then convert to x.264, then to FLV. It would be nice to be able to skip the x.264 encode and retain full resolution but that seem to be the only way to lock down the gamma.

I’m also concerned about delivering full-res completed videos to clients in their native DVCPRO HD format that look muted and desaturated compared to the web formats I deliver. The only way I can see getting around this is encoding the DVCPRO HD file to x.264 and then back to DVCPRO HD (but even then I wouldn’t be adding resolution, just making the file editable).

Does anyone have a workaround for these or did I just answer my own questions?

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Mac Pro | Leopard 10.5.7
2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon | 4GB Ram
Final Cut Pro Studio 2 | Avid Media Composer

[Dustin Parsons]

Actually, the x.264 to FLV didn’t work for me – I just tried it and not only did the gamma/colors shift back to their muted greenish tint but there was also a lot of corrupted pixels/digital noise in some areas (not just normal compression pixelation).

I also noticed that when I use Quicklook to view the x.264 it looks just like the FLV with the muted color and corrupted pixels.

Additionally, encoding the x.264 at full 1080p 2-Pass at the Best compressor quality gives me a file that’s about half the size of the original DVCPRO HD but my quad-core MacPro with 8GB of ram can’t play it at the full framerate, it runs around 15-18 only occasionally getting up to 24.

Has anyone else run into these issues?

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Mac Pro | Leopard 10.5.7
2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon | 4GB Ram
Final Cut Pro Studio 2 | Avid Media Composer