Feb 2009 legal or not legal

[Bob Zelin]

My reply at the bottom –

Charlie writes –
We had a tape turned down by one of the other TV stations stating it was not technically correct and would not playback on their machines.
My tape Operator told me to take a trip with him and we went to teh other station. He walked in sked if the tape loaded on their machine was running shortly, and was informed it didn’t go for almost a half hour.
He took it down, purt up his “Ampex” test tape and set up their machine, put our tape on it played it back showed the guys it played good, took it down, set the machine back to where they had it set. Loaded their tape back up and turned to them and said don’t ever send one of my tapes back saying it is no good.
As we were leaving they were going through their machine resetting it to proper standards

CHARLIE !!!
I used to do the same thing. I used to freelance as an engineer at MTI in NY on 47th St. Years later, A&E took over the facility, and used this as their facility (so I knew this facility). A&E rejected a client’s tapes, so I dragged the tape, my client, and a calibrated Tektronix monitor in a cab over to 47th and 2nd Ave. I barged into the machine room, went up to a machine not in use, plugged in my scope, and insisted that their “QC expert” come on over and show me what was wrong with the tape. They were using an old AF Associates blanking meter, that had an LED readout of the blanking, and was not measuring with the expanded H display on the waveform. DONT EVER REJECT ONE OF MY TAPES UNTIL YOU LEARN HOW TO READ A G-D DAMN WAVEFORM MONITOR ! (hey, my client was going to kill me, I had to do something).

I LOVE THE FLAMINGO HOTEL, and have stayed there for the past 6 years at NAB.

bob Zelin

[Jeff Bernstein]

The thing that will really boil your blood is when you sit down with the person who wrote the technical requirements, and you ask them how they decided what those requirements should be, they usually don’t know. Usually it is plagiarism.

If you look at the actual reasons for some of these specs, namely luminance capped at 100IRE, you will find that this was necessary because analog ‘birds’ or satellites have an issue where if that luminance goes over 100IRE, it bleeds into the audio subcarrier, which then causes an audio buzz. Similarly, the same thing could happen with B & W TVs with tube electronics (not just the CRT).

Considering that I don’t think there are any distributors using a bird with baseband analog video anymore, I challenge these same ‘geniuses’ to justify continuing with this stupidity.

Similarly, with chroma, there is nothing in a either a satellite or terrestrial transmitter that has issues with chroma all the way up to 133 IRE. These limits were originally put in place to deal with the limitations of 1″ Type C and Color-Under tape formats in which either reds would sparkle, in the case of Type C (depending on the TBC, Zeus was the best), or the chroma would bleed, like you see most easily in the beauty of VHS and S-VHS.

So, don’t get me started. I think Bob and I should start our own video militia. Oh no, now the NSA is tracking the Cow.

Jeff Bernstein

Digital Desktop Consulting
Apple Pro Video VAR
XSAN Certified
MetaSAN Master Reseller

323-653-7611

[Charley King]

[Jeff Bernstein] “If you look at the actual reasons for some of these specs, namely luminance capped at 100IRE, you will find that this was necessary because analog ‘birds’ or satellites have an issue where if that luminance goes over 100IRE, it bleeds into the audio subcarrier, which then causes an audio buzz. Similarly, the same thing could happen with B & W TVs with tube electronics (not just the CRT).”

This started long before there was a satellite other than the real moon. We had to watch video levels in B&W or the Transmitter would buzz and even in some instances kick off momentarily. Of course the color was started long before tyoe C 1″. Our old 2″ tapes could not handle chroma that high.

I believe in keeping standards not because someone told me to, but until someone tells me there is not 1 TV out there in the entire world that can not handle these signals, I will continue to produce with a standard of quality that I respect.

Oh by the way, I probably will not be producing much longer since I have decided to retire as of October 1 this year.

Charlie

ProductionKing Video Services
Unmarked Door Productions
Flamingo Las Vegas Hotel
Las Vegas, Nevada

[Bob Zelin]

Hi –
I just got this from a top editor that I know, that had his tapes rejected by HBO –
do you think that “no one” is looking at “the little things” anymore after reading this ?
And you want a simple answer Devin !!!!!
Bob Zelin

So, yesterday I find out the master failed QC. Here are the reasons:

1. The HBO tail logo freezes at the end and is also mono not stereo. I put in the logo that they had me download and did nothing to alter it. It was exactly as they provided it.

2. Several “glitches” at the bottom of the frame during credits. Turns out what they are calling “glitches” are actually a half line issue for 1 scan-line due to slomo. Part of the last line briefly flickers to white. BUT it’s only visible in underscan. (More on that below.)

3. Part of the credits go out of safe title (but not safe action) by a couple of letters. BUT their guideline docs actually never define what they consider safe title nor even mention at all that credits have to be within safe title.

[Devin Crane]

Bob,

I don’t think you are understanding my question. Forget HBO, forget the discovery channel, forget WKRP, Does the ATSC have standards for broadcasts. I understand every station and network is different some say 100 ire some say no audio above -12db. I want to know what the ATSC says is acceptable.

Our local station still wants me to send a beta sp tape with the whites at 100 ire setup at 7.5 even after Feb 17, 2007. And you know what I will do what they say. It’s just for my own fancy to know what the ATSC says is acceptable, or maybe it doesn’t matter, they don’t have any illegal levels and ATSC doesn’t care.

[Jeff Bernstein]

Devin,

All of these requirements are based on the particular network’s delivery requirements. You will find that while there are some defacto similarities, there is no industry-wide accepted practices.

So, if you were provided a master that would only be broadcast in HD and never go to SD, as to levels, there should not be any illegal levels since, defined by its very delivery, you have a digital path, through and through.

With the exception of possibly HDNet, you will have a hard time finding a network that is 100% HD only.

Jeff Bernstein

Digital Desktop Consulting
Apple Pro Video VAR
XSAN Certified
MetaSAN Master Reseller

323-653-7611

[Devin Crane]

Still once again I’m not looking for an industry wide standard.

[Bob Zelin]

ATSC DATA BROADCAST STANDARD
(INCLUDING AMENDMENT 1 AND CORRIGENDUM 1 AND
CORRIGENDUM 2)ADVANCED

https://www.atsc.org/standards/a_90-with-att.pdf

SO, to answer your question, there is no specification for IRE levels in the ATSC standard. However, there are no specifications in SMPTE 259M or SMTPE 292M for IRE levels (or mV levels) for SDI or HD-SDI levels, either. However, you still must adhere to these levels. Why? I have NO F#$%ING idea why – it’s on every damn scope, and it’s required by every damn station. Where does it say in SMPTE 292M that you shall not exceed 700mV of peak white material for an HD-SDI standard? Yet if you don’t, you get crucified.

This is why I am being a smart ass in my answers to you – because there ARE NO CLEAR ANSWERS – if your tapes get rejected, are you going to get a lawyer, and say “your honor, we wish to sue WXYZ, becuase we adhere to the ATSC and SMPTE standards for digital transmission, and these muther f#$%ers won’t let me air my tape”.

Bob Zelin

[Devin Crane]

Thank you, that’s what I was looking for. I have no concern whatsoever about our tapes being rejected the only time a tape has been rejected of ours was due to a Beta deck gone bad. Even then all but 1 station accepted the tapes, go figure.

[Charley King]

[Bob Zelin] “there ARE NO CLEAR ANSWERS”

When I first heard that the world was going digital a couple days or was it a couple decades ago. I was so excited that the world was finally going to have one set standard for the entire world.

Well, that elation was soon blown to hell when the manufacturers started coming up with standards for their equipment and stating that would be their standard. Then The networks started jumping on certain manufacturers equipment bandwagons and stating if I am spending this much money this will be our standard. Then the transmission people got in on it and came up with more than one transmission standard, and now the world is divided into more standards than it had in the analog world.

Bob, I am right there with you, and this is one of many reasons I am retiring. Too Many Frikin standards, and that means there is no standard. You have to please every broadcaster with his little petty ideas. As to video levels. I still say you can’t go wrong if you adhere to the old original standards. No one ever rejected a tape because the PP levels were exactly 1 volt and not more.

The days of simple standards that were widely adhered to are gone, just take pride in the fact that you can still hold on to your values.

Charlie

ProductionKing Video Services
Unmarked Door Productions
Flamingo Las Vegas Hotel
Las Vegas, Nevada