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FCPX is not used by professionals and only suitable for editing home movies!
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First let me say it’s a good thing Apple doesn’t make pianos. Because if they did, I can imagine a piano lets say, without those pesky black keys. It sure would be easier for people to learn to make music without them, don’t you think. And who care’ about all those old stodgy pianists, just because they’re used to 88 keys.
Reading this thread reminds me of a few things. Many years ago, Showtime Networks here in NYC was using Media 100. It was quite a capable platform, but they had to abandon it simply because they couldn’t find the talent to edit. So while X may be capable, the question is will there be enough talent for larger organizations to make it work? I think yes, eventually, but I also feel there will be a great divide. Conde Nast for example, I could see buying hundreds of FCPX licenses, and make that work well for them as publishing moves that direction. A tv network or large production company probably will not go that route.
I started using FCP1 the week it was released, and even a year or two later when I would call post houses to try and get work, some of them would laugh at me calling myself an “FCP editor.” Within a short time after that I was getting gigs at those type of facilities, simply because I knew the technology, and they wanted to try it along side their Avid systems. So I could see the same happening with X.
Aside from all the unavailable user features in X, one thing I know I need (not sure if X has this) is the ability to make my own flavor of non standard sequences. I often have to get under the hood of sequences and change the compressor, frame rate, size, etc to deal with issues as they come up. A 720×480 ProRes sequence isn’t a standard preset, but I use that all the time. I change compressors often (to re-edit smaller sized web videos at their native resolution, but in ProRes) depending on the stage of production, so for me even loosing that ability is a non starter, let alone things like setting an aux timecode, the timecode window itself, ganging preview windows, etc. These are all things that pros need and often rely on. To simply say that we don’t need these tools any longer is a bit arrogant I think. Can you imagine telling your client that they don’t need their logo any longer, or that lower thirds are passe because you as the maker don’t think they’re necessary?
Apple should be taking cues from us as to what we want, not the other way around. I have no problem with them adding new tools and ways of doing things, and simplifying many processes, as long as ALL the old tools are there for use when needed, even if arcane. Apple didn’t invent editing, or even the NLE, but it feels to me like they think that way.
If they continued FCP development even minimally, to exist along side FCPX I would have no issues with thier being an additional choice. If there had been modernized tower (with PCIE slots) released to co-exist with the new imac like Mac Pro, I would have no issue. Choice is good.
At one point I was a huge Apple evangelist, (like when they had 2% market share and were almost out of business) Who knew that a fantastically rich and healthy Apple would mean they would not use their amazing wealth to give pros the tools they have requested?
I’m working on a feature script and I wrote a line where a character using a tablet jokes “Do we all get a free Ipad?” I re-read the line, cringed, and immediately re-wrote the line to avoid giving Apple any props. What kind of corporate behavior turns someone like me from a huge advocate to someone who doesn’t want to even mention an Apple product in a creative endeavor?
I guess I shouldn’t be so bitter. It’s not that big a deal – so I have to throw out all the software and all the hardware (large investment in peripherals) I’ve been using and start again from scratch. Apple knows best.
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[Andy Branner] ” A larger user base than legacy FCP ever had doesn’t come from nothing.”
And what precisely are you smoking? You’re very demanding that others offer specifics, I’d like to see where you get your numbers for all sides of that equation.
[Andy Branner] “And in the end, OLD markets and brown-nosing near retirees don’t actually make for sustainability.”
I see you’re still ever vigilant against ad-hominem attacks.
[Richard Dee] “Aside from all the unavailable user features in X,”
[Andy Branner] “Huh? Such as?”This is a great line when you then go onto acknowledge and debate the list of features. Non-standard sequences – well, you acknowledge, not yet. Aux timecode – well no, you acknowledge, but you’ve only used it a few times.
[Andy Branner] “You’re in fact the only one I have heard to date that mentioned any of those three as somehow “essential”.”
Walter Soyka and I believe David Lawrence have talked about their need for non-standard frame sizes and I have talked about the need for aux timecode. So your error is either caused by a lack of familiarity with this forum, a bad memory or willful ignorance.
[Andy Branner] “Three things that I used all of maybe TWO or THREE times over my 10 year stint using legacy FCP.”
Well I could go anywhere with this statement, but let’s just lay it off to the hypocrisy of complaining about someone else’s anecdotal wisdom by citing your own.
[Andy Branner] “And HOW exactly does buying an eight times larger computer for the mere sake of housing outdated, overpriced PCI cards strike you as the better and somehow so much more sensible alternative?”
When did PCIe cards become outdated? A 16 lane PCIe card blows the doors off of any Thunderbolt connection in terms of speed, which is why the overwhelming majority of workstations have them, with no indication of that trend abating. Thunderbolt itself is an unloved, seldom used minor niche in the world of modern computing, of which Apple is still not the major player. The sensibility of the PCIe alternative lives in the flexibility of an open PCIe system, but apparently you have your Apple blinders on and therefore that value is invisible to you.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
[Andy Branner] ” Got me again. :-(“
As you and Herb and others may have noticed, there are a few people here at the Cow, on both sides of this “debate”, with whom arguing is pretty much pointless.
If you do like FCPX, you are a home movie/cat video making fanboy hack, and clearly not a professional.
If you don’t like FCPX you are an irrelevant luddite incapable and afraid of learning new tricks.I think that about sums it up.
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~”It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.”~
~”The function you just attempted is not yet implemented”~ -
[Charlie Austin] “If you do like FCPX, you are a home movie/cat video making fanboy hack, and clearly not a professional.
If you don’t like FCPX you are an irrelevant luddite incapable and afraid of learning new tricks.I think that about sums it up.”
That’s a bit harsh, those sort of attitudes are mostly gone from here (with a few exceptions!)
Steve Connor
There’s nothing we can’t argue about on the FCPX COW Forum
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[Steve Connor] “That’s a bit harsh, those sort of attitudes are mostly gone from here (with a few exceptions!)”
I agree. It’s generally quite civil and informative here these days… I was referring to the exceptions. And I must stress again, the exceptions are on both sides of the debate… 🙂
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~”It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.”~
~”The function you just attempted is not yet implemented”~ -
[Charlie Austin] “If you do like FCPX, you are a home movie/cat video making fanboy hack, and clearly not a professional.
If you don’t like FCPX you are an irrelevant luddite incapable and afraid of learning new tricks.”Charlie, it’s not all black and white. There are shades of gray. For example, I am a Luddite hack.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Walter Soyka] “Charlie, it’s not all black and white. There are shades of gray. For example, I am a Luddite hack.”
🙂
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~”It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.”~
~”The function you just attempted is not yet implemented”~ -
[Andy Branner] “Right. And silly me could have sworn that Apple was in fact the largest PC manufacturer in the world. That certainly qualifies as a niche. Got me again. :-(“
Desktop OS Market Share as of September 2013 according to Net Applications[1]is 7.54 percent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
Apple may be the largest single manufacturer in a very crowded field but they are a tiny slice of that field and not “the” major player. Which is why GPU cards for Mac are so expensive – you pay for the lack of numbers.
[Andy Branner] “It’s common knowledge, since Apple have said it repeatedly. Look it up. Oh, but let me guess… since APPLE said it, it couldn’t possibly be true… 😀 “
No Andy, you posted it, you back it up, that’s the way it works.
It may be common knowledge to you but I’ve never heard these numbers published by Apple or anyone else. What I do know is that Apple has never, ever published their numbers about the size of the legacy market, so I’m intrigued how they are going to demonstrate that the new FCPX market is bigger than something they’ve never quantified. I don’t doubt that someone knows these numbers but I know two things about that person
1) he ain’t talking and
2) it isn’t you.And yes i’m always skeptical when a manufacturer makes a claim without quantifying it. I wouldn’t trust General Motors, I wouldn’t trust Coke, I wouldn’t trust Adobe and I wouldn’t trust Apple. But Apparently you would. Good for the lucky salesman that has you as a customer.
[Andy Branner] “Wow. ONE workaround and ONE whole missing non-feature. Yeah, you got me there. It’s completely unusable.”
Again, the strawman argument. Show me where anyone in this thread other than you has claimed that FCPX is completely unusable. Unusable for some things, in certain workflows, yes – but completely unusable – apparently you are the only one that thinks that.
[Andy Branner] ” Feel free to name me so much as one thing that I need a full 16 lanes for that I couldn’t possibly do/be replaced by any other means… hm?”
A Tesla card. Better GPU’s than Apple currently offers. I’m sure it seems silly to bring up additional GPU’s when Apple is now making dual GPU’s standard – but then again it once seemed silly to think a PC would need more than 64kB of memory. Time marches on and being limited to Thunderbolt i/o will make some users feel the pinch in a fairly short time.
[Andy Branner] “Based on what exactly? Usage maybe? Well gee, by that rock solid logic I’d say that makes things like FibreChannel look pretty pathetic in comparison! What’s the word for “less than niche” again?”
Nobody on this thread is claiming that fibre channel is going to obsolete PCIe cards. You made that claim about Thunderbolt and it is laughable in it’s wrongness. Thunderbolt made it’s appearance almost 3 years ago and it appears on less than 5 % of all computers but this makes the other 95% obsolete, even though at the moment Thunderbolt has less capacity than PCIe. Brilliant.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
[Herb Sevush] “[Andy Branner] “Wow. ONE workaround and ONE whole missing non-feature. Yeah, you got me there. It’s completely unusable.”
Again, the strawman argument. Show me where anyone in this thread other than you has claimed that FCPX is completely unusable. Unusable for some things, in certain workflows, yes – but completely unusable – apparently you are the only one that thinks that.”
This seems to be one of Andy’s favorite rants. He pulled the exact same stunt on me over in the Adobe Forum. He definitely digs laying down the claim that you’ve tossed a hand grenade at FCP X, and then bitterly chides you for it.
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[Andy Branner] “Right. I say “biggest PC manufacturer”, you quote “Desktop OS marketshare”… makes total sense to me”
I’ll get back to the relevancy down below but first
[Andy Branner] “Well gee… I’ll give you that that probably doesn’t count as PUBLISHED, no. 😀 But then I don’t recall naming a NUMBER either, do you? And no, it’s never been said in the form of a number, but rather as a mere COMPARISON to the known numbers… see above. And no, they have never “published” the “numbers” to my knowledge, but they’re sure to mention it at any and every demo they do”
You were correct and I was wrong. I hadn’t heard that “over 2 million” number quote, and a numerical quote from a spokesman of a publicly traded corporation meets the definition of “published” for me. I shall now bask in my wrongness.
[Andy Branner] “Though I’m not actually sure about the “all of them combined” part. All of 7, yes.”
If you don’t believe it about “all combined” then how do you justify your original line “A larger user base than legacy FCP ever had doesn’t come from nothing.” the FCP user base consists of a lot of editors that are still working with FCP5 and FCP6 – I find it amazing, but just read the questions still being posted on the FCP forum. So if you’re unsure of the “all-combined” figure, how sure are you?
[Andy Branner] “OUCH. My tip: know what you’re talking about. I suggest you actually check your own arguments before you bring them. Unless of course the roughly 3.5teraflops of performance that the Tesla will give you somehow beats the UP TO 7teraflops that the GPUs in the new Mac Pro will? You might want to check the batteries in your calculator… :-D”
I was not thinking of the Tesla in opposition to the Firepros, I was using it as an example of someone adding GPU power to already existing GPUs. If you think that power users will never ever want more than 7 teraflops of performance than of course you are absolutely right. Innovation will stop now, Apple and Andy have determined that we shall get 7 teraflops and no more, because in your wisdom you know for a fact that technological innovation is going to stop right now, right here with the intro of the Tube because who could ever imagine a possibility where a computer user would ever want anything more than this magic number.
If on the other hand you expect that “the need for speed” will continue unabated, then putting down 4K-6K on a non-upgradable system might give you pause.
[Andy Branner] “So remind me… WHAT is it I need PCI for again?”
Now we’re back to the silly part of your argument again. Because for many users Thunderbolt will simply mean that they have to outsource all their PCIe infrastructure, it doesn’t replace it, it simply adds cabling and complexity to it. I have an LTO5 external drive – what does Thunderbolt do for me there. I have two PCIe Raids – am I supposed to junk them or can I have your permission to still use them.
Mac systems account for less than 10% of total computers, and while all those computers are made by one manufacturer they are swamped by the combined weight of the 90% that are made by all the other manufacturers. Thunderbolt has gained near zero acceptance from 90% of the computer market, so the idea that it makes PCIe cards “outdated and overpriced” is just ridiculous. Thunderbolt 2 lacks the bandwidth of PCIe and yet it’s more advanced, I guess because Apple gave it a cool name.
[Andy Branner] ” Absolutely nothing of value to be had with a Thunderbolt connector. I forgot.”
The strawman yet again, although offered with a smile. Thunderbolt is wonderful, it allows for faster disk transfers, if you have a Thunderbolt external hard drive, it allows you to outsource your PCIe cards, although only up to 8 lanes. I’m looking forward to getting a Thunderbolt connection on my next computer, it’s just that I also want that computer to have full PCIe expandability. I don’t want to trade one for the other, I want both.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf
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