FCP X and the Tour de France

[Ryan Holmes]

[Bret Williams] “Like I said before, just making it a subscription model doesn’t prevent Adobe from distributing updates when they feel like it.”

I think we need to be more specific about the term “update.” Feature updates are new or additional features added to the software that did not exist before vs bug fixes which allow the software to run more efficiently or stable on a given platform. It sounds like you’re using the term update interchangeably between features and bugs. Since 2002, due to SOX and the cost of manufacturing/shipping discs no software developer would push feature updates quickly, typically it was 12-24 months between major releases (or even longer for Operating Systems).

[Bret Williams] “The first, with CS6, provided zero major updates during the year.”

That’s because legally, when shipping discs, they are not allowed to offer feature updates for free. So those get pushed to a once-per-year party where you try to draw the users into upgrading to the next version. Apple did this with Final Cut for nearly a decade…same legislation, same problem. Moving to a digital delivery method allows Apple to deliver all your software updates for “free” (while making money on their hardware) and Adobe moved to a subscription model since their only revenue stream is software (free updates for life don’t really work for them).

Also, CC 2014 has already had an extra feature update since it was released in June.

[Bret Williams] “and the life lock-in if you want to be able to open your CC projects in the future.”

[Darren Roark] ” the most popular reason people don’t like it is because they heard somewhere it sucks. The second most popular is that Apple is untrustworthy and could just EOL it at any second, third most popular, the interface is too cute and toy like, fourth, no tracks. “

I think just as FCPX users have their list of “why people won’t use FCPX” Adobe users have their own. Number 1 on that list is probably this idea of “lock-in,” but you solved it yourself later in the paragraph:
[Bret Williams] “If I have to revisit a CS6 or CC project I pay by the month.” Or as I’ve been doing since FCP6, part of the project archive is an interchangeable format – AAF, XML, OMF, EDL – to be able to move the project to another software as needed in the future. Because I don’t expect to be using the same software in the future that I’m using now.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost

[Bret Williams]

[Ryan Holmes] “[Bret Williams] “If I have to revisit a CS6 or CC project I pay by the month.” Or as I’ve been doing since FCP6, part of the project archive is an interchangeable format – AAF, XML, OMF, EDL – to be able to move the project to another software as needed in the future. Because I don’t expect to be using the same software in the future that I’m using now.”

A nice concession for Adobe might be to allow their software to open in a sort of viewer mode. You could view your projects and you could export other formats (XML, EDL, AAF, etc) of your projects. But you wouldn’t be able to make changes to the project without paying a monthly rental.

[Dennis Radeke]

[Bret Williams] “I’m literally blown away at the Atlanta Cutters group. They literally look at X users as sub class. The barely even acknowledge it’s existence. But the connection between Motion and FCP X should be a huge discussion point. Instead it’s somewhat predictable. When the Adobe guys were there showing off CC 2014 (hey adobe I thought there weren’t going to be versions anymore?) everyone oohed and aaaahed over the ability to edit AE text from within premiere. A feature FCP has had for what, a decade and WITH drop zones? I guess if we could have a demonstration on publishing it might blow their minds. And if they saw rigging in action there’s no telling.”

Hi ya Bret,

First, I hope you came up and introduced yourself as I was there at the meeting and would have appreciated meeting you in person. Perhaps we did and its my senile memory playing tricks on me. Regardless, let me address your points.

Version numbers: Overall, it’s still Creative Cloud, but you need to be able to distinguish a release from another so it makes sense. I think it makes sense and hope it doesn’t get you too upset.

Live Text: Let me give acknowledgement that FCP/Motion had this functionality before us. Clearly having the ability to edit the text without going into a tool like After Effects isn’t unique and something Adobe has wanted to do for some time and will continue to develop.

That said, there are ALWAYS going to be features or workflows that some programs have before others. That is true for all NLEs. What I like about Adobe is that we try to admit when it should be, ‘yeah, we should have this a while ago, but other things took priority.’ Certainly, that’s what I communicate when I talk with customers and if you had spoken with me, I hope I would have said that.

A couple of examples where Premiere Pro led the way would be when it went 64-bit native several years before all but Sony Vegas. We were also the first to truly tap into the GPU and remain the leader in that regard. I could go on (and on!) but you get the idea.

As for the focus of user groups, they stand or fall based on the focus of the community and their needs.

Thanks for the feedback,
Dennis – Adobe guy

[Bret Williams]

Hey Dennis! Yeah I did meet you briefly at both the Cutters meetings. I was hoping to win the subscription ya’ll we’re giving away as mine was just expiring and I would have rather put off the decision whether to focus more on Motion and drop my subscription.

The cutters meetings are great overall. I’m just amazed at how when anyone mentions they’re an X editor the general response, whether in jest or not, is “oh, you’re the guy!” The meetings started right around the time X pissed everyone off and that legacy seems to still remain. But I could be imagining things. I’m sure there’s no actual conspiracy or anything. They did have a demo of FCP X at their first meeting. I wasn’t there, but I can’t imagine it went over well in July 2011! But I think it’s time to have someone like the guys at Ripple Training come by and give away some training and show off Rigging and publishing.

Adobe, subscription model aside, is making great strides. I wish I could support it more. The upside for myself, and likely many others is that Motion is getting another look from us long time AE veterans. I still prefer precomposing over groups and the render que over Motion’s more basic exporting but the real time engine of Motion and the rigging and publishing are just light years ahead of AE.

[Dennis Radeke] “A couple of examples would be Premiere Pro went 64-bit native several years before all but Sony Vegas. We were also the first to truly tap into the GPU and remain the leader in that regard. I could go on (and on!) but you get the idea.”

Well, as a Mac user you probably understand I disagree somewhat. As I mentioned above, AE (unless CC14 is some amazing change – I know you were working on it) is still stuck in render cache land where in Motion I can pretty much edit (fi I wanted to) video and fx in realtime even in dynamic mode. And I’ve always had Premiere as part of a bundle, since CS3 or 4 when Adobe brought it back to Mac, and because it didn’t support whatever graphics card I had it’s 64bitness still didn’t beat the RT I could get with 7 and later X. I had the full blown 2011 iMac, the one Resolve and Smoke was being demoed on at the time, and still, the high end card wasn’t officially supported by Adobe. They hadn’t tested it fully or something like that. Apple only had about what, 4 cards worth testing at the time and AE was putting out cool new updates like ray tracing which were all but useless without card support. mObject or element3D to the rescue!

[Dennis Radeke]

[Bret Williams] ” Hey Dennis! Yeah I did meet you briefly at both the Cutters meetings.”

Well, lets make sure you introduce yourself next time so I can put the face with the forum!

[Bret Williams] “Adobe, subscription model aside, is making great strides. I wish I could support it more. The upside for myself, and likely many others is that Motion is getting another look from us long time AE veterans. I still prefer precomposing over groups and the render que over Motion’s more basic exporting but the real time engine of Motion and the rigging and publishing are just light years ahead of AE.”

Well as I said, there are good things about every program. However, at the risk of coming off a tad haughty (and I don’t mean to), I think the amount of possibility that After Effects offers, the 3rd party ecosystem, the absolutely infinite amount of tutorials, its 20+ year pedigree, its versatility at both motion graphics and visual effects, etc. put it just a tiny bit in front of Motion. 😉

[Bret Williams] “Well, as a Mac user you probably understand I disagree somewhat.”

Well, I was speaking specifically about Premiere Pro performance in my example and not After Effects, but as a rule, Adobe absolutely, positively never wants to make the OS (Mac or PC) a part of your decision. We strive to have performance parity across both platforms at all times. And when we have comparable on both Mac and PC we do pretty well IMO.

[Bret Williams] “As I mentioned above, AE is still stuck in render cache land”

There are a lot of reasons for why this is but I will start with the most important part… Yes, we agree. And we’re working very hard to make that better. In the past, if you asked a user which would he/she rather have nifty feature ABC or make it faster, most people have said in the past, “give me the feature.”

Another way to I describe After Effects is thusly: You can take anything into it, do anything to it and spit out anything you want. Yes, somewhat of an exaggeration but you get the idea. We support almost anything and can do almost anything. With that, comes a certain amount of computational intensity when it comes to previewing frames! On top of that, we strive to give many options in terms of balancing accuracy/visual quality vs. speed of previewing as I’m sure you’re already familiar with.

[Bret Williams] “CS3 or 4 when Adobe brought it back to Mac, and because it didn’t support whatever graphics card I had it’s 64bitness still didn’t beat the RT I could get with 7 and later X.”

Comparing the real-time capabilities of CS3 to where we are now is like comparing a broken bicycle to a Ferrari. I know you’re very happy with FCP X and that’s great, but if and when you have an opportunity, give the latest version of Premiere Pro a spin on a good Mac and tell me what you think.

Thanks for the conversation,
Dennis – Adobe guy

[Bret Williams]

[Dennis Radeke] “Thanks for the conversation,
Dennis – Adobe guy”

Hey Dennis, hopefully you’ve been at this long enough to never take anything on these forums personally. It’s probably not said enough but I know you and Kevin and anyone else from Adobe that sticks their neck out here is appreciated. it’s great to have such a direct connection for tips, or to vent at. And obviously we vent at everyone, Apple, Adobe, Avid, whoever. My personal gripe is with the CC model and not really with the state of the software. Everything is amazing and nobody’s happy, right? When I first started editing it was on the VideoCube and I had no expectations and everything WAS amazing. I guess NLEs have gone from revolutionary to evolutionary.