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FCP X 10.1.2 released…
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[Craig Alan] “Any one who needs to discuss/explain/ask about an operation in FC gets caught in the problem of “project” meaning timeline.”
Haven’t seen or come across it once in all of three years myself.
[Craig Alan] “It was a stupid decision. “
You’re entitled to your opinion. For me it’s nothing more than a matter of semantics and rather silly solipsism.
[Craig Alan] “Larry Jordan is perhaps the most successful FC/NLE teacher in the world.”
I highly doubt that. Whereby popularity isn’t to be equated with quality or success either. He’s been out of the loop (no pun intended) at Apple for quite a while now. Not without reason. But then that would be yet another appeal to “authority” anyway, a logical fallacy. 😉
[Craig Alan] “Apple was using terms that they thought a consumer level end user would understand better than the professional terms being used; or put more globally, that was more ‘user friendly’.”
Nonsensical conjecture imho. Not sure who you can state something like that so as-a-matter-of-factly. Unless of course you can substantiate it. I’d say there’s a “I think” or “possibly” missing in there. Glaringly so.
[Craig Alan] “Please, Robin. From day one of FCP X release, the film and television industry, who had been using FCP 7 in larger and larger numbers, complained that you could not round trip a FCP X “project” to the sound editors, the colorists, the special effect artists.”
Yes, and even to this day. Go figure. Even though it hasn’t been true for over two and a half years. So how does their ignorance qualify as an some sort of argument? And I’d say that utilities such as 7toX et al are a superb example for why outsourcing such things was a brilliant idea. And nearly all of them are available for less than just a MONTHS worth of CC, if you even need them, which the vast majority in fact don’t. Not sure how that qualifies as a disadvantage by any stretch of the imagination. And those that do need them I hardly think are somehow burdened by such paltry additional investments. A complete red-herring imho.
[Craig Alan] ” I think Adobe now has a very strong foothold in the professional NLE world and this will not go away any time soon.”
There’s no way of telling how successful (be it more or less) PPro is due to the CC model and I know that Adobe doesn’t have numbers either, so any such claim is, once again, mere speculation, assumption and/or hearsay. But FCP still has the greatest share of the market across all versions as of last year. So either way, they have a lot of catching up to do first. And somehow suggesting any and/or all success they may or may not have had is somehow related to the differences in either NLE’s export/exchange formats strikes me as a pretty amazing stretch.
[Craig Alan] “… Adobe might well not have gotten a foothold and AVID might have become a dinosaur. “
Coulda shoulda woulda. Once again: unsubstantiated conjecture and speculation. I have yet to see any substantial proof that the marketshare matters have changed in any big way. Maybe you have it?
[Craig Alan] “I often assume that there is a way of doing something that I haven’t learned yet”
There you go. X is doing exactly that. Take it from me and other 20+ year editing veterans, it’s a revolution AND (logical) evolution. I fear you’re missing the reference to how it’s been in those decades to recognize how and to what degree.
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[Robin S. Kurz] “You’re entitled to your opinion. For me it’s nothing more than a matter of semantics and rather silly solipsism.”
Got me there. I did a search and apparently I’m the only one in the world who finds calling a timeline a project was a poor choice. No one, except me, has to explain that a “new Project” is a new timeline. And, in fact, you can make as many new “projects” as you need for every one of your projects and store them all in the same “event.”
[Robin S. Kurz] “He’s been out of the loop (no pun intended) at Apple for quite a while now. Not without reason”
And what reason would that be? Was this an opinion?
Funny, on Apple’s site they list his Web tutorials first.
[Robin S. Kurz] “Nonsensical conjecture imho. Not sure who you can state something like that so as-a-matter-of-factly. Unless of course you can substantiate it. I’d say there’s a “I think” or “possibly” missing in there. Glaringly so.”
I try to avoid the “in my opinion” because unless it can be confused with something factual, or commonly accepted, what else could it be? If the speaker is a known expert then the IMO might let the audience know its a personal choice and he is not saying it would not work for someone else. When its used for dramatic effect, IMO it’s rather pretentious.
[Robin S. Kurz] “Yes, and even to this day. Go figure. Even though it hasn’t been true for over two and a half years. So how does their ignorance qualify as an some sort of argument? “
So the entire collective of broadcast and film editors are ignorant? I’m the one who uses “silly solipsism(s)”? For the last 2 1/2 years?
Name me the professional applications that starting 2 1/2 years ago, in a collaborative production environment, that a FCP X project could be efficiently round tripped to and from and exactly how this would be done.
I hope that FCP X does get adopted by the high end pros. And I know that third party developers have stepped forward to bridge many gaps. However, this means at each update things get broken and then need to be fixed. Resolve for example stopped working with the latest XML. So anyone using resolve needs to use a workaround with the new beta version of resolve.When did Logic start using FCP X’s XML?
Last year.
In the last week, John Davidson speaking about a collaborative workflow using FCP X:
Forum: Apple FCPX Techniques
User Name: John Davidson
Post Subject: Re: Sparse Disk Bundling, Revisited.————————————————–
XML’s don’t retain smart folders, on screen text data, and effect keyframes. I don’t know if it’s technically considered a bug or just not information XML is capable of preserving.
But with libraries relatively small it isn’t an issue.
[Robin S. Kurz] “And I’d say that utilities such as 7toX et al are a superb example for why outsourcing such things was a brilliant idea. And nearly all of them are available for less than just a MONTHS worth of CC, if you even need them, which the vast majority in fact don’t.”
I chose FCP X over CC because a subscription model would not work for us. I am NOT anti FCP X. But it would be foolish to claim that its launch did not allow Adobe Premiere to gain a much bigger foothold in profession editing circles. Do I have the latest marketshare in professional houses at my fingertips? No. Do you? I do know that many editors on the cow switched from FCP 7 to Adobe Premiere.
From: 10/2013
https://noamkroll.com/battle-of-the-nles-which-editing-software-will-prevail-fcp-x-vs-avid-vs-premiere-pro/“The future of the three major video editing platforms – Avid, FCP X, and Premiere Pro is a topic that has been coming up a lot lately. Since FCP X was released and shook up the post-production world over two years ago, a lot has changed. Premiere Pro has developed really nicely and gained some ground with indie filmmakers and small companies, Avid has stayed on course and brought back former users despite financial trouble within the company, and FCP X has slowly and silently matured, while being given a second look by many users that had previously abandoned it.”
“To me” that’s a pretty good summary. And “I think” this latest update is a big step forward. “Personally” I’d like to see FCP X gain a bigger place in the professional world because its the one I’m learning and teaching. It is not my goal to become a freelance professional editor. Nor was it my goal when I began using FCP 3. But it was very helpful as a user of FCP 3-7 that full time pros used it. The info available was geared toward professional practices. That is of interest.
Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.
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Point out to someone that the appeal to authority is a logical fallacy… and what do you get? :-))))
[Craig Alan] “I did a search and apparently I’m the only one in the world who finds calling a timeline a project was a poor choice.”
Well there you go! 😀
[Craig Alan] “When its used for dramatic effect, IMO it’s rather pretentious.”
“for dramatic effect”… :-)))). Gotcha. Letting personal opinion and perception appear to be fact on the other hand is completely unostentatious. 😀
[Craig Alan] “So the entire collective of broadcast and film editors are ignorant?”
Not sure when, where or how I ever said “the entire collective”. Because I in fact didn’t, but oh well. I was in fact only referring to the ones still making the nonsensical claim. Fortunately that’s not “the entire collective”, no. Just the misinformed (ignorant if you like) exceptions that 9 out of 10 times aren’t even a part of the “collective” they are referencing, but are just parroting indiscriminately whatever it is their self-defined authorities tell them. Go figure.
[Craig Alan] “Name me the professional applications that starting 2 1/2 years ago, in a collaborative production environment, that a FCP X project could be efficiently round tripped to and from and exactly how this would be done.”
Name me the professional applications that I couldn’t interface with two years ago. Be it with or without 3rd party utilities.
But then… what do I even care about 2+ years ago??! 😀 Completely irrelevant. As if the fact that FCP and its ecosystem are constantly evolving were some sort of unique occurrence. I’m just happy to know that I’m working with an ever evolving and open standard such as XML instead of being stuck with some stagnant, inferior nonsense from the 80’s such as EDL or the likes.
[Craig Alan] “I hope that FCP X does get adopted by the high end pros.”
Erm… you appear to be missing a looooong list of exactly that. There have been a plethora of cases reported on e.g. fcp.co alone. I guess you need to reevaluate your sources. But then if I were lemming enough to actually make decisions based on how to best mimic what “the cool guys” are doing, I wouldn’t have ever gotten a Mac or even touched FCP to begin with. Fortunately I don’t work that way.
I for one am training one of the (if not THE) largest digital publishing houses in Europe next week. They, as with the vast majority of FCP 7 or earlier users at that level, simply have a massive backend that needs/needed to be sorted out first before they could make the jump, which takes a lot of time and testing. Literally years in certain cases. But they are extremely anxious to finally make the jump because FCP 7 has (understandably) become a useless PITA for them in their digital workflow. Never once were PPro or Avid ever considered either.
So, again, I don’t know where you’re getting your numbers or information that somehow no “high-end pros” (whatever that even means) are adopting X.
[Craig Alan] “When did Logic start using FCP X’s XML?”
Actually… anyone, like myself, using AAF and/or ProTools doesn’t in fact care. But it’s great to have yet another, more direct alternative if needed, yes.
[Craig Alan] “But it would be foolish to claim that its launch did not allow Adobe Premiere to gain a much bigger foothold in profession editing circles.”
Aside from not having made that claim either (I’m seeing a pattern here), it actually would be far more foolish to claim the opposite without anything substantial to support the “much bigger” claim, whatever that arbitrary, subjective measurement even means. Notice I’m not making either claim, so the burden of proof is in fact not on my side, sorry.
And as of CC it’s practically impossible to make any definitive claims as to usage of any one CC app. Unless you simply want to count every single subscriber as a Premiere user, seeing that they potentially are. Otherwise you’re reduced to a completely inconclusive guesstimate at best. And you obviously can’t make any claims in terms of purchases. Which at least would make for a measurable, indisputable value to go from. But… you’re left with mere hearsay, corporate PR or subjective impressions, nothing else.
[Craig Alan] “Do I have the latest marketshare in professional houses at my fingertips? No.”
My point exactly. So unless you can quote the source and methodology of your “numbers” they simply don’t mean anything and its nothing other than an opinion, assumption, conjecture or whatever… only without you prefacing it as such, since that’s apparently pretentious. Your own personal perception within your action scope, from which nothing statistically useful or even vaguely conclusive can be derived. Let alone on a global scale. Quoting others that use the same “methodology” doesn’t change that. There’s also something called “confirmation bias” that clearly plays into it.
[Craig Alan] “Premiere Pro has developed really nicely and gained some ground with indie filmmakers and small companies”
Whilst FCP X has gained even exponentially more ground, therefore canceling out any real gains for PPro. In fact resulting in an overall relative loss. But FCP’s gains being in broadcast, feature films and commercials.
(SCNR Had to give the same claim-game a shot :-D) -
I did not in fact appeal to (Larry Jordan’s) authority. I pointed out listening to his turotiorials (as an example) you can hear the problem with Apple’s choice of “project”.
You claimed he was “out of the loop…for a reason.” What’s your problem with Larry? Does he work for Apple, no. But he is listed on Apple’s FCP X site. One of only three training sites they list – the first they list.
Specifically, what opinion did I express as if it were a “fact.”
You brought up the 2 1/2 years:
[Craig Alan] “Please, Robin. From day one of FCP X release, the film and television industry, who had been using FCP 7 in larger and larger numbers, complained that you could not round trip a FCP X “project” to the sound editors, the colorists, the special effect artists.”
Yes, and even to this day. Go figure. Even though it hasn’t been true for over two and a half years. So how does their ignorance qualify as an some sort of argument? So you stated that the high end pros that did not adopt FCP X were (as a collective) “ignorant.”
[Craig Alan] ” I think Adobe now has a very strong foothold in the professional NLE world and this will not go away any time soon.”
There’s no way of telling how successful (be it more or less) PPro is due to the CC model and I know that Adobe doesn’t have numbers either, so any such claim is, once again, mere speculation, assumption and/or hearsay.
I never mentioned the CC model as the reason a percentage of pros moved to Adobe. Go back three years, and the choice of professional NLE was AVID or FCP. Every other program was a small niche. Now its AVID, FCP X, or Adobe Premiere.
[Robin S. Kurz] “My point exactly. So unless you can quote the source and methodology of your “numbers” they simply don’t mean anything and its nothing other than an opinion, assumption, conjecture or whatever… only without you prefacing it as such, since that’s apparently pretentious. Your own personal perception within your action scope, from which nothing statistically useful or even vaguely conclusive can be derived. Let alone on a global scale. Quoting others that use the same “methodology” doesn’t change that. There’s also something called “confirmation bias” that clearly plays into it.”
Robin, you haven’t given in this entire thread a single statistical fact. And aside from a gig you got teaching at an unnamed “largest digital publishing house in Europe,” you have given only a single reference (e.g. fcp.co, which I do read btw) and not a single example of a broadcast TV show or major motion picture that was/is being edited on FCP X.
[Robin S. Kurz] “Whilst FCP X has gained even exponentially more ground, therefore canceling out any real gains for PPro. In fact resulting in an overall relative loss.”
Where are your facts?
if I were lemming enough to actually make decisions based on how to best mimic what “the cool guys” are doing, I wouldn’t have ever gotten a Mac or even touched FCP to begin with. Fortunately I don’t work that way.
Well, we made the same decision, Robin. We stated the same number of statistical facts based on our intuition, experience with colleagues, and what was available on the net.
Here’s a story from January of 2014:
https://nofilmschool.com/2014/01/hollywood-feature-film-edit-apple-final-cut-pro-x/
Now maybe they got their facts wrong and this is not the first major Hollywood film to use FCP X.
Can you name another?
I’d be happy to hear about more and how they made out using the program for this film.
Everything below is my personal opinion (just to be clear)
I don’t come here to prove how smart I am or to put down other posters. I think you do. This dialog between us has been a waste of time since I didn’t learn anything. Not so, of all the other threads I read and/or posted.
Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.
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[Craig Alan] “So you stated that the high end pros that did not adopt FCP X were”
Wrong again. It was never about adopting. You’re continuously confusing and interleaving the various points and arguments with each other at random, which is actually rather tiring, sorry.
[Craig Alan] “Robin, you haven’t given in this entire thread a single statistical fact.”
No idea why I should, seeing that I never made a single claim that would require it. Unlike you. And even though it’s none of your business, that publishing house is in fact Alex Springer SE.
[Craig Alan] “Can you name another?”
Which part of “I don’t care” did you not understand? 😀 You’re the one pointing to others for justification, not me. Remember? 😀 I’m not interested in the tired “My NLE is bigger than your NLE” line of discussion. If that were somehow actually relevant, why aren’t you using LightWorks? [an entirely rhetorical question btw]
[Robin S. Kurz] Whilst FCP X has gained even exponentially more ground, therefore canceling out any real gains for PPro. In fact resulting in an overall relative loss.
(never mind the sentence immediately following that)
[Craig Alan] Where are your facts? “
Wow. If someone doesn’t even get the most pithy sarcasm, which was even subtitled as such :-))))) , then I’m clearly in the wrong discussion. Aside from not really being interested in continuing to have words put in my mouth and having circular discussions, yes. Enjoy the last word. I’m out.
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Since I have the last word, I feel so empowered. Thank you!
https://www.axelspringer.de/en/cw_youtube_videoseite_en_18552354.html
I grew up hearing stories about that garage. Freaking mythic!
They definitely changed the world as we know it.
Job/Woz’s garage move over. Orville and Wilbur’s garage move over.
Now that they are moving to FCP X, it should cement X’s place as a high-end NLE.
Murch move over.
[Robin S. Kurz] “I’m not interested in the tired “My NLE is bigger than your NLE” line of discussion.”
No disrespect, intended. Your copy of FCP X is way bigger than mine. So believe me, I wouldn’t go there.
[Robin S. Kurz] “Wow. If someone doesn’t even get the most pithy sarcasm,”
Sorry, it went completely over my head. Too aligned with your POV to see the pithy in it.
Seriously Robin,
I think you have a really solid knowledge of FCP X and can help other users.
But you seem to have a need to put other people down.It is not in the DNA of the Cow.
Spirited debate yes; personal put downs, no.
Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.
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An example:
Jeremy Garchow Re: Fascinating article on FCP.co today…
by Jeremy Garchow on Jul 10, 2014 at 8:43:24 am[Herb Sevush] “then what’s the big whoop-de-doo – story structure diagrams?”
Again, it’s not that these things can’t be done in other NLE’s, it’s that FCPX’s particular (peculiar?) structure lends itself to this style of working. Many editors working on a Project (and I mean Project in the FCPX definition of the word), but staying separate in their own timeline interface.
Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.
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