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FCP 5 native “lossless” HDV editing?
Apple anounced at their website for FCP 5 “lossless native HDV-editing without any quality degadation”.
https://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/finalcutpro/quicktours/native_HDV.htmlDoes this mean the HDV-mpeg2-codec will be never converted to RGB while rendering an effect?
What I have learned is this, that each time you render a timeline (effects, filter, etc.) the compressed codec will be decompressed by FCP to RGB, then rendered and finaly compressed again to the specified codec you use (even in DVCPRO HD)with certain artefacts depending from the respective codec.
Only 10 bit uncompressed does not change the pixel format while rendering, – so only 10 bit uncompressed does not change native picture quality.
See blackmagic design comments about 10 bit: (https://www.blackmagic-design.com/site/decklinkhd.htm)
“When pulling heavy image treatments and color grades, or when working on the most intricate graphic design, 10 bit uncompressed will retain all 10 bits of precision in the SDI video standard which helps eliminate image banding or contouring.”But this would mean that the HDV-editing of FCP5 cannot be really lossless??. Therefore if we want to conserve the best quality out of the originally highly compressed HDV image while editing and using filters etc. we should capture and transform to 1920×1080 10 bit uncompressed?
Any experience to this theme is welcome.
Roman Teufel
RTV-STUDIO -
18 Replies
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as far as I know, there is only one lossless HD format : HDCAM SR in Dual Link Mode (4:4:4 RGB). HDV has heavy compression and therefore you will see heavy artifacts even if you capture hdv with hd-sdi 10 bit. HDV is not a usable format for professional postproduction.
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[Noe Marti] “HDV is not a usable format for professional postproduction”
Neither is DV, but is is extensively used around the world.
Steve Connor
Cardinal HD -
[Steve Connor] “[Noe Marti] “HDV is not a usable format for professional postproduction”
Neither is DV, but is is extensively used around the world. “
Very true Steve. I know of entire television series and even some films that are shot with DV cameras like the Sony PD-150 and especially the Panasonic DVX-100A. Now for chroma key DV is definitely NOT the preferred format, but for straight video and image, DV is actually a very nice format. The real key in DV, and pretty much any other format, is the person running the camera and the lighting. Good D.P. and good lighting = excellent quality no matter the format.
I’m not a big fan of HDV and much prefer DVCPro HD as the compressed HD format of choice. But to say HDV is not a usable format is certainly far from the truth.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Creative Genius, Biscardi Creative Media
https://www.biscardicreative.comNow in Production, “The Rough Cut,” https://www.theroughcutmovie.com
“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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as long as you do not make heavy alterings or even chroma keys – yes. then DV or HDV may be usable…..But for most compositing work it is not.
I work with both: the low end stuff (dv/hdv) and digibeta/hdcam…..I can tell you the difference is incredible. I have pulled hundreds of dv based chroma keys: it is always a big pain….the same with hdv. -
But HDV in FCP5 should be as “lossless” DV in earlier versions of FCP.
Stright-cut don’t do nothing to the quality (unless in has to do some re-encoiding whne it comes to mid i-frame editing).
Effects that EDIT the picture (other than straight cuts) WILL give you a generation loss.
The difference I can see betweeen FCP5:s HDV support and for instance FCE is that FCE converts the HDV/MPEG2 stream to an “intermediate codec” and the reencodes it to HDV/MPEG2. Here you ALWAYS got a generation loss what ever kind of editing you do.
Filmin HDV and editing that footage as Uncompressed HD would be something like filming with DV and editing that in Uncompressed SD. Going to uncompressed in the post-process helps ALOT when doing effects (grading or what ever) but puts strain on your system.
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But HDV in FCP5 should be as “lossless” DV in earlier versions of FCP.
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But HDV in FCP5 should be as “lossless” DV in earlier versions of FCP.
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[Noe Marti] “as long as you do not make heavy alterings or even chroma keys – yes. then DV or HDV may be usable…..But for most compositing work it is not.
I work with both: the low end stuff (dv/hdv) and digibeta/hdcam…..I can tell you the difference is incredible. I have pulled hundreds of dv based chroma keys: it is always a big pain….the same with hdv.”In your earlier post you said it’s not usable, now you say it’s not usable for Chroma Key. Two completely different things. DV is usable and airing every single day on US Broadcast networks. For Chroma Key it is terrible and makes a lot of work for the compositor, keyer to make it look clean.
But as far as color correcting and things like that, it’s totally usable in both corporate and broadcast so long as you use the High Precision YUV render settings in FCP. I too use DigiBeta, BetaSP, DV and HD material in my day to day work. As a pure video format, DV is great. For compositing, you just need to know to work with it to keep it clean.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Creative Genius, Biscardi Creative Media
https://www.biscardicreative.comNow in Production, “The Rough Cut,” https://www.theroughcutmovie.com
“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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While saying HDV is “not usable” is not true, I think the comparisons with DV thoughout this thread are also missing an important point.
Of course DV is pretty nice. The problem with HDV is that it’s not DV – it has three times more compression than DV (this is, three times more pixels with the same data rate and a quite old codec). I have a strong feeling that one of the priorities of the HDV format is to make it just as good as they want, no more that that. In other words, NOT to repeat the way DV stole market share from Beta SP, costing so much less. This way, HDV is really far from HDCAM. On the other hand, seriously, if DVCPRO HD (and DV50 SD!!!) will be around in a $6000 camera, who wants 25 Mpbs MPEG-2 HDV?Adolfo Rozenfeld
Buenos Aires – Argentina
https://www.adolforozenfeld.com
adolfo@adolforozenfeld.com -
[Adolfo Rozenfeld] “On the other hand, seriously, if DVCPRO HD (and DV50 SD!!!) will be around in a $6000 camera, who wants 25 Mpbs MPEG-2 HDV? “
$6000 PLUS expensive P2 Media, it is certainly more expensive than HDV and it doesn’t record to low cost tape.
Given the choice I would shoot HDCam SR every time, but it all comes down to cost.
HDV is “entry level” HD, the new Panasonic camera is a step up in quality AND price.
HD now has something for everyone.
Steve Connor
Cardinal HD
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