Fast, reliable & cheap (!!) SAN

[Bob Zelin]

Hi Jim,
I did not realize that Helios shared network systems could support a multiple user 4K workflow.

from the Helios website –
“Be it file server, print server, Web-based file server, or prepress solution ”

Since the site doesn’t mention hi bandwidth shared video solutions, I am confused as to the solution you have in mind.

You know, Accusys has an Infiniband solution (which is resold as Cal Digit Super Share) –
the new performance of the dual controller looks very impressive –

fasthttps://www.accusys.com.tw/ExaRAID/ExaRAID/Performance.html

faster than I can do with 10gig ethernet –

and I know that Facilis is now starting to offer 16Gig Fibre channel connection – but I don’t have the specs. But their current 8gig fibre solution using the ATTO FC 8gig cards won’t do a multi user 4K solution.

If Helios has a fast solution that can offer multi user 4K workflow, I would sure love to hear about it –
this is the Helios website –
https://www.helios.de/start.html
and this is Jims Company Packet color that rep’s Helios in Reno, Nevada –
https://www.packetcolor.com/Packet/clients.html

looking foward to learning more about Helios from you Jim !

Bob Zelin

[Bob Zelin]

https://www.es.com/products/Production_Systems.html

I would bet a nickel that this is what Chris is using.
According to the Evans and Sutherland website, this is all done
with Adobe After Effects, with Pre-renders, and “virtual projection”.

these are the projectors that Evans and Sutherland recommends.
https://www.es.com/products/Configurations.html

from this little bit of web searching, it appears that you only need a simple Adobe After Effects system. Doing 12 clients is really nothing, and the usual list that I specify will work fine for you.
To have 100TB of usable storage after the RAID grouping, will require 3 48TB arrays, or two 64 TB arrays (which can be done today with the new 4TB SATA drives on the market). I strongly suggest RAID 6.

Shared storage solutions that will work with Adobe After Effects for Dome Master include (this is just a sample list – )
Facilis Terrablock
AVID ISIS 5000
EditShare
Small Tree Granite Stor
Cal Digit Super Share (ExaSAN Accusys is the same thing)
Studio Network Solutions
Maxx Digital Final Share
Apace Systems
and of course systems based on software solutions from
Tiger Technology MetaSAN, Command Fibre Jet, and good old XSAN.
Rorke Data is a great integrator for Fibre Jet, if you are so interested.

But I really want to hear about what Helios can do Jim !!!

Bob Zelin

[John Veron]

Hi,

I don’t post often but I am going to propose something completely different here.

Please contact someone in your area who sells FusionIO cards.
Ideally not an IT vendor (as they have no clue what we guys do).

FusionIO cards are similar to SSDs (well, not really). They sit in the PCIe slot as storage.
You can bundle multiple together to provide even more performance using a FusionIO software called Sphere.

Now, ONE card can easily give you 4K uncompressed! I benchmarked 1.4 GBytes/s .
They are expensive though and can only hold 420 GB (the ioFX card).

While they appear expensive you will save A LOT of money when you try to get that performance through a disk array.

Ask the Fusion Guys for advise on how to serve out the cards over FibreChannel to other computers as you would with normal storage.

You could use SANmp or FibreJet (SANmp is cheaper) for sharing.
Good luck!

Oh, and curious to hear what the others say!

[Chris Maytag]

Thanks for your reply, John.

We’re familiar with FusionIO, and they have a place in our workflow on one or two machines. But we’re not looking for streaming (as others have inferred incorrectly) or frame buffering. So, to be clear: we need the fastest possible shared production storage for our money. It’s clear that DAS and NAS solutions aren’t acceptable for various reasons, hence my original post here.

My take is that a fiber switch coupled with SAS arrays & fiber HBAs on the workstations is the way to go; this is why I orignally posted.

—
Chris Maytag
Fiske Planetarium, University of Colorado at Boulder
Sci. Viz, Video & Motion Graphics
Cinema 4d / Maya / Adobe / FCS

[John Veron]

I see, well I personally think that not a single NAS solution will be able to give you the performance.
You need block-level access to the disks, not file level.

A NAS “translates” the computer request for a file to a location in its file system on its storage.
There is quite some overhead which makes it slow. On all of them.

Editshare, ISIS 5000 and others won’t cut it. Too expensive to get this massive performance.
Better to look at FC based storage such as Rorke, StorNext, EVO, etc.

But even then it won’t be cheap and you need to throw a lot of disks at it.

[Alex Gerulaitis]

[Chris Maytag] “It’s clear that … NAS solutions aren’t acceptable for various reasons, hence my original post here.”

Just because NAS is slower (700MB/s per port is the fastest NAS I heard of), or for other reasons?

Alex Gerulaitis
Systems Engineer
DV411 – Los Angeles, CA

[Chris Maytag]

> Just because NAS is slower (700MB/s per port is the fastest NAS I heard of), or for other reasons?

It’s an assumption based on speed considerations. While I don’t know that we couldn’t make do with slower, file-level storage in a pinch, we think this it’s the better way to go.

—
Chris Maytag
Fiske Planetarium, University of Colorado at Boulder
Sci. Viz, Video & Motion Graphics
Cinema 4d / Maya / Adobe / FCS

[Walter Soyka]

I’m not a shared storage expert like the other posters here, but I do specialize in large format animation and design (often at >4K resolutions). I’d love to hear a little more about your workflow, and from that, I may be able to help the others estimate your bandwidth requirements.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Eric Hansen]

Hey Chris

on what computers do you actually need to playback in realtime? is it only on the computer that plays the actual projection? if so, i would suggest a modest shared storage system, and super fast direct attached storage on the playback system. this is the setup i see at post houses that have an online/theater/master suite. when you’re dealing with massive frames like that, but only need them in one place (at the end of the post production process), then just beef up that one place.

FusionIO is a good idea, especially if After Effects is doing the actual playback. you can buffer the entire timeline to the card (assuming it all fits). Or, get an ATTO SAS card, attach a bunch of Enterprise SSDs to it in a RAID-0, and go to town. the latter is the setup I saw being tested at Skywalker Ranch last year in a theater that needed to pump out 4k DPX in 3D. based on what the techs told me at the time, i would only attempt this with the help of the ATTO technicians directly.

e

Eric Hansen
Production Workflow Designer / Consultant / Colorist / DIT
https://www.erichansen.tv