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Does This Kill The Mac Pro?
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I’m not sure I understand exactly what you don’t understand….. (that wasn’t exactly clear ether)
As I see it, the point of buying a Mac Pro is for two reasons:
The power that the CPU’s provide, and the expansion options offered by the PCIe bus.
One of those options is being able to chose a GPU. If apple switches to an onboard GPU, as I’m arguing they’re forced to by adding Thunderbolt, then your options will be limited to one or two GPUs which you can’t change later, and unless Apple and nVidia get their act together, that means ATI and therefor no CUDA.
This would have no impact on any of Apple’s software, but it would have a big impact on high-end use of Mac Pro’s which is very CUDA intensive.
My further thought is that, having dispensed with the need for a PCIe connected GPU, Apple will also dump the PCIe slots altogether, in favor of Thunderbolt. Problem is, Thunderbolt isn’t fast enough to replace PCIe as a connection for GPUs if the performance of GPU cards in x4 slots is any indication. (there is the Sony Thunderbolt connected GPU unit for one of their laptops, so it is possible. Whether that setup can handle high-end 3D work remains to be seen.)
My whole point?
I see Thunderbolt as forcing Apple to drop PCIe… And PCIe is the reason people buy Mac Pros.
I’m guessing the next Mac Pro will be a small box with Thunderbolt and no PCIe, and GPU processing will be severely handicapped to one onboard GPU that doesn’t support CUDA and offboard GPUs that are handicapped by the Thunderbolt interface being 1/8th of the speed that PCIe GPU’s use.
Also, anyone using Fibre Cards will find themselves handicapped compared to PCIe.
As soon as 100Gb Thunderbolt comes out this won’t be a problem anymore.
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[Martti Ekstrand] “Having seen how a mid-range gaming PC just shines with Premiere Pro, running circles around my MacPro (with a ATI card) has really forced me to for the first time ever to consider buying a Windows box next time I upgrade.”
I think that Adobe works hard to take the platform out of the equation. We will give you all of the same acceleration opportunities on both Mac and PC.
That said, Jeremy is right – buying a Mac isn’t about buying power – it’s a UI/UE (User Experience) choice and that has value to the user on a daily basis. If mac is what you love, stay with it. If power+speed is more important to you than your UE – than the PC is a logical choice.
Hope this helps,
Dennis -
[Kevin Patrick] “products like Premiere Pro, since it needs a CUDA engine.”
Premiere Pro does not NEED CUDA, it just really likes it.
Check out my article on the subject: https://blogs.adobe.com/genesisproject/2011/10/diving-into-nvidia-gpus-and-what-they-mean-for-premiere-pro.html#more-606
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[John-Michael Seng-Wheeler] “I see Thunderbolt as forcing Apple to drop PCIe”
It’s this thought that prompted me to start this discussion. Not that Thurnderbolt forces them to drop something. I thought of it more as a necessary technology to allow them to finally move away from PCIe computers.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see it happen when FCP X supports broadcast monitoring, which I’m guessing will happen through Thunderbolt. Early 2012.
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[Dennis Radeke] “Premiere Pro does not NEED CUDA”
You are correct.
However, after having run PP CS5.5.1 on my Mac Pro both with and without a CUDA graphics card, I believe I have confirmed that I need CUDA.
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[Kevin Patrick] “I wouldn’t be surprised to see it happen when FCP X supports broadcast monitoring, which I’m guessing will happen through Thunderbolt. Early 2012.”
I guess it would be pretty amazing to me if they could somehow limit this to thunderbolt only. It’s a pcie protocol after all.
I know that there’s a lot of uncertainty at this point, but I’m not sure this level of skepticism is warranted quite yet, even thought you and John-Michael have interesting points.
As it stands, thunderbolt is 4x PCIe. If Apple is interested in the Pro market, which they keep saying they are, then they realize that 4x PCIe simply isn’t enough.
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We are all(users, hardware and software developers) in the same situation if we rely on OSX environment as a backbone for our work. We are standing on the edge of a cliff with the cloud cover upto the edge of the cliff and we don’t know if there are steps down or it is a sheer drop of 1000m. For those working on normal editorial at standard current broadcast standards, this analogy will seem overly dramatic. Though for those of us that have found Lion a step backward which won’t support some of our PCIe cards or has presented no advantage at all, our concerns are very real.
The supported output of mini displayport in OSX(which is less than the tech spec) is insufficient compared to that of a dual link DVI output, and as we are entering a huge escalation in the Pixel count wars, so how do you work with the content at its native res in a mac environment? If apple throw everything into the thunderbolt basket, which at the moment is still vaporware or untested in my work environment.
It very hard now, to know what to do, apart from buy as many mac pros as you can now, and then look at the options with a certain amount of leisure. And yes technically a hackintosh is a option…BUT if you are in time critical situation and anything goes wrong, well you will have to underwrite it as no insurer will cover you.
My circumstances are different to many of you as editing and content creation is only part of my workflow to feed exhibiting and live manipulation via a mac based environment.
Phil
Philip G Haynes
Live Visual Design and Direction -
[Philip Haynes] “The supported output of mini displayport in OSX(which is less than the tech spec) is insufficient compared to that of a dual link DVI output, and as we are entering a huge escalation in the Pixel count wars, so how do you work with the content at its native res in a mac environment?”
Specifics? What do you mean here?
[Philip Haynes] “It very hard now, to know what to do, apart from buy as many mac pros as you can now, and then look at the options with a certain amount of leisure. And yes technically a hackintosh is a option…BUT if you are in time critical situation and anything goes wrong, well you will have to underwrite it as no insurer will cover you.”
This is going on in many aspects of the video market, just look at the amount of cameras. It’s pretty insane. It is hard to know what to buy if you need to buy something.
A hackintosh is appealing, but that’s a level of tinkering I’m not ready for in a pro environment.
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[Philip Haynes] “buy as many mac pros as you can now”
I have (like probably many Mac Pro users) have thought about what to do if (or when) Apple ends the Mac Pro’s life.
What would you do?
A. Instantly purchase a Windows box.
B. Instantly purchase a Hackintosh box.
C. Instantly purchase your last, new Mac Pro(s).
E. Wait, and read the posts from people who choose A, B or C.
F. Start a Creative Cow forum titled, Apple Mac Pro or Not: The Debate -
[Philip Haynes] “The supported output of mini displayport in OSX(which is less than the tech spec) is insufficient compared to that of a dual link DVI output, and as we are entering a huge escalation in the Pixel count wars, so how do you work with the content at its native res in a mac environment?”
Specifics? What do you mean here?
2560 by 1600 is currently the output ceiling of a mac mini displayport/thunderbolt as it stands which is great for most folk. Though there is no clear data on what is going to happen outputting using purely the thunderbolt side of things, and what will be the latency compared to the display port side of things.
Phil
Philip G Haynes
Live Visual Design and Direction
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