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Does 5D + Magic lantern + Juicedlink pre-amp = audio capture success?
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Check out sync-n-link. Word is it can do batch processing.
Eric
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I’m not going to beat this to death. I’ll just tell you two TRUE stories from my career.
I was shooting a relatively famous boys choir and taking a feed from the FOH mixer for the soundtrack. I heard clear, noiseless singing and a beautiful rendition of the voices. So smiling, I handed my headphones to the music director. He listened for about half a second and got a horribly stricken look on his face. “I’ll fix that IMMEDIATELY” he says in a panic and runs to the console and starts twisting knobs. I keep my yap shut and after he gives me a “thumbs up” I put the headphones back on – and suddenly there were midrange and bass sounds from the choir that I HAD COMPLETELY MISSED HEARING. The MORAL? At that point in my career, I hadn’t really learned how to LISTEN to a choir (or really, any complex audio signal with UNDERSTANDING), so I never knew anything was missing from my mix.
Story two involves hearing my audio work the first time in a commercial theatre. These were before the days that I was able to afford my studio and good speakers. I’ll never forget the AWFUL 60hz HUM that came on before the dialog track ever started – something the 3″ speaker on my TV had completely hidden from me during the mix.
Yes, I’ve seen and heard not just DSLR but lots and lots of CAMCORDER shots hit television and the local news and even national broadcasts. Sure you can mostly hear the dialog. But that’s NOT the same as developing a QUALITY audio workflow that can go anywhere without embarrassing you as a producer.
You guys want to keep working in a way that works just fine for now – but never actually addresses the process of making your audio tracks AS GOOD as your video tracks out of something like a 5d – then fine. Free country. Go right ahead.
I suspect that somewhere down the line, you too will have EXACTLY the kind of experiences that I had where my failure to understand more than “it’s clean, so it must be OK” in audio terms led me to moments of professional embarassment.
At that point, you’ll go one of two ways. You’ll keep “making do” with sub-standard audio systems constructed around inadequate breakable non-locking mini-jacks and unbalanced to balanced gizmos that suck up money because the CAMERA isn’t equipped for grown up audio – or you’ll learn that the risks of embarrassment are something you wish to put behind you.
An H4n costs under $300. Cables, real mics, and accessories will probably stretch that to around $1000 to make audio something you don’t have to EVER apologize for.
You don’t want to invest that – and the time to learn to operate with appropriate tools ALL THE TIME as insurance against failure – great.
Rock on.
Perhaps you’ll NEVER face a client or customer who DOES know how things are really supposed to sound and doesn’t like that mini-pin crappy solder joint crackling that developed after a month of using on-camera mic input on your 5d.
Luck be a lady and all.
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Bill Said: “I’m not going to beat this to death.”
Too late… you just did.
Sorry Bill, but I have to ask this question. Who or what broke your heart, shattering it to pieces, and how long ago was it that you still so ardently cling to the pain?
Jared
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The yellow warning light on my emoticon consolette just flickered.
Perhaps, if Bill would allow me, best practices are called best practices for a reason.
OTOH, new technology comes along and new ways of working supplant old.
ENG (generally) has lower spec expectations than documentary and film work. What we saw in the clip was ENG. I didn’t listen to it on the big monitors for several reasons, including the fact that it’s squished for web delivery and I didn’t want to prejudice it with that burden.
Lets step away from any possible finger pointing and step closer to dealing with the issue. Does it sound good or not. Record something put it up somewhere. Let us judge and discuss.
Regards,
Ty Ford
Want better production audio?: Ty Ford’s Audio Bootcamp Field GuideWatch Ty play guitar -
Mine was flashing bright red upon receiving Bill’s post. Thanks for your attempt at peacemaking Ty.
Jared -
I’m still unclear if Bill even knows what Magic Lantern with a JuicedLink box even sounds like or has he even ever heard of them.
If he hasn’t used those two items together with the 5D then he is not qulified to answer this thread no matter how good he is or knowledgeable on all other audio systems.
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Without hostility or ANY combativeness –
Danny, just to put you at ease….
Answer 1, YES, I’ve followed Tramm’s xcellent hack since it was in Beta. (And I’ve shot with the 5d itself since about 4months BEFORE he announced ML. Great work, his. Too bad his talent will likely never be adequately rewarded since Canon added enough of what he accomplished in his evolutions in their second round firmware upgrade to make it’s functional inconveniences (like the re-boot issues) problematic to many producers like me.
As to my overall “qualifications” to discuss audio for video I’ll leave those for others to expound upon.
But, since some here seem to be calling me out for lack of understanding and experience, allow me to reflect back to you a reality acknowledged by BOTH the Juicedlink AND the Sound Devices web sites.
“Throttle back the 5d’s noisy pre-amps to the maximum amount possible by setting the audio level to one click above FULLY ATTENUATED.”
Responsible manufacturers who understand audio are ALL saying exactly the same thing. The circuitry in the 5d is SUB STANDARD and have to be set to BARELY pass a signal if the self noise profile of the camera is to be diminished.
Look, if YOU feel comfortable with the 5d as the repository of the MOST CRITICAL COMPONENT of your hard work (THE CRITICAL AUDIO TRACK) that’s just fine with me. All I’m saying is that I moved on. And I’d argue that the VAST majority of working 5d users have done the same.
From my watching on Chris Hurds board – Tramm has less and less time to work on trying to keep up with this stuff. And as the new cameras come out – particularly the newer DSLR/Camcorder hybrids there will likely be a diminishing market for any solution.
Until we see, we have to make choices that let us work TODAY.
I have.
Feel free to make your own.
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Bill, thanks for the stories. I agree there is much more involved in creating a great audio track than “it’s clean, so it must be OK”. I agree with everything you wrote. However, ENG sound mixers don’t have the luxury of large format consoles with 4 band sweepable EQ with adjustable Q and a variety of preamps and a locker full of microphones with which to shape the sound we wish to capture. We have to “make due” with portable mixers, a variety of shotgun mics (and hypercardioids, at times) and lavalier mics boasting a variety of frequency response curves. There is very little “art” in creating ENG audio. That doesn’t mean there is no skill or intelligence needed to work in the field, but we employ a different set of requirements for the audio elements that we capture.
True story. Many years ago I worked on an ESPN Classics story. Our interviews were recorded in a small room adjacent to a noisy hallway with large metal doors that banged shut on one side and a security office on the other side with 2 way radios going off frequently. No controls for the A/C were present. I was mortified. I padded the sills of the metal doorways as much as possible with gaff tape. But many of the other elements were beyond my control, given our time constraints. The producer signed off on the condition of the shoot and we soldiered on. Many months later I saw the piece air on TV. The interviews that we shot (and that I fretted so much about) sounded fine. I could barely perceive any background noise bleeding into the primary audio track. It was an eye opening experience in my professional career. I know several sound mixers who would have totally freaked out in the situation that we found ourselves in and would have gone berzerk trying to control the extraneous noises. Those mixers don’t get many calls for our work because they don’t know how to let things go, when the situation demands. Discretion is essential to better judgment.
Again, I’m not advocating sloppy work, or lowering the standards of sound mixers out there. What I am trying to say is that we approach every job with the attitude that we will capture the best audio possible given the location AND the final distribution format. In a perfect world, there would never be a difference, but who said TV production was a perfect world! 🙂
For ENG audio, the Canon 5D can capture “acceptable” (and that’s the key word here) audio. Not superb audio, not great audio, but acceptable audio. Sometimes that’s all that’s necessary, especially considering the budgets of many “productions” today.
I agree with you in the assessment that if folks want their audio to sound as good as the video from the 5D and 7D looks, then recording to a separate, quality recorder is necessary. I’m not sure anyone here would argue that point.
I appreciate your input here Bill.
Rodney Morris
Freelance Sound Technician/Mixer -
Rodney,
Excellent content as usual! Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply.
Having been in radio (and a Production Director) for 17 years, half of that with a major market AM/FM facility that also had a TV station in the same building, I know a lot about ENG.
News is news and you get what you can get. I think this situation is a little different. Yes, the piece shown in one of the previous posts appears to be a new story. But lets be careful how we extend that use.
We are always on the slippery slope. It just depends on where you want to dig your ice grippers in. As I mentioned earlier in this very long thread, lets put the new fixes to the test and find out how good the results are. In my explanation of my problem with HDV audio, I neglected to mention that during my research I spoke to a Sony engineer who said, “Certainly, if you want the best audio, you’ll double record if you’re shooting HDV.” I will omit his name so as not to bring him any grief.
The HDV followers really let me have it about their favorite new format. I’m not sure what their applications for HDV were, but I assured them that while they could argue with me, they couldn’t argue with the math.
Two years ago I was hired an the audio supervisor for a DVD about a well known music group. When I talked to the shooters, they said they were shooting HD with a Canon HV30. I mumbled something about the HV30 being HDV not HD. They quickly told me I didn’t know what I was talking about and that the Canon web site said the camera was HD!! Not wanting (or caring) to get into the math, I dropped the topic. I did, however, go to the Canon site and in their big, bold headlines they called the HV30 HD. It wasn’t until the fine print in the specs that they mentioned it was HDV: MPEG1 Audio Layer II (2 ch).
Months later, when they saw their final results on DVD, they said they were a little disappointed in the video quality. I offered that it looked pretty good for HDV. This time, they did not respond.
Again, who want to do the experiment with this new fixed up rig and pas the audio around? Let’s use some good mics and a good mixer up front. A Schoeps and any Sound Devices mixer you want.
Regards,
Ty Ford
Want better production audio?: Ty Ford’s Audio Bootcamp Field GuideWatch Ty play guitar -
Bill,
I truly enjoyed reading your stories!
One thing to keep in mind is that pre-synced audio is incredibly alluring to any solo shooter who doesn’t have a dedicated sound person logging every take. In an ENG environment, logging is often out of the question. I tried defeating the AGC of a different camera on the cheap without using a Juicedlink or Beachtek, and the results were not great because the recording level ends up being too low. Perhaps the Juicedlink/Beachtek preamps get around this one issue by pumping up the recording level such that it is high enough but still does not distort the input of the DSLR? Of course other issues remain as you pointed out.
The solution I went for is to get a Marantz DMP661; could have gone with the Zoom H4n, but I didn’t like the handling characteristics or the interface. (Zoom just came out with a firmware update that allows you to set the levels on the two XLR inputs separately. What?? You need a firmware update for someting that basic? Little league stuff, in my opinion, and I didn’t want to deal with it.)
That said, I’d love to know what results people get out of a Juicedlink or Beachtek and DSLRs in general (not particularly interested in the 5D per se).
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