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Do FCPX freelance editors charge for your “Edit Suite”
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This thread certainly has run the range of business discussions. It seemed to me that the OP was about what was primarily an hourly or day-rate situation. I think that’s quite a bit different than large full-service productions spanning months.
In my experience over the years, I’ve worked on tons of large projects and they were always from estimates based on a rate card as a starting point. Either the client said the budget is X and we structured the services that could be offered done for that amount. Or – We’d come up with a bid amount based on the client’s request for services and our rate card. Usually it’s a give and task.
Take a look at the example of a small indie film. In general, these should cost around $1 Million for something basic and non-union; but, I’ve certainly done plenty that are in the $200K and below range. When that happens, you really have to stretch the value proposition. Looking at the editing segment, you are generally planning about $25K (no counting room/system) for the creative cut. But when the client says, “No, we can only spend $10K,” then you tackle it by offering less time. You only get 8 weeks for a cut, instead of 16 weeks, for instance. That puts the responsibility back on the client (or director) to be in tune with the objective, instead or being open-ended on how long it takes them to decide on a “locked cut”. Or – be willing to pay overages.
In all of these examples, a rate structure determines the bid or the guidelines. You can be generous and pad in extra time if needed, but you have to know what the opportunity cost will be if you run over on your dime and thus turn away work.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
Two things I say to clients about what Walter and Jer are talking about, which is really the “value proposition”;
If they say that a video project costs too much, I ask them: “What is the end result of this video campaign supposed to be, specifically? Is it an increase of sales from 20 thousand units to 200 thousand units? So, for a project that’s supposed to pull in a million dollars in sales, what percentage of that million dollars is it worth for you to invest in OBTAINING those sales? Is it one percent of the goal you want to spend to REACH that goal? Is it worth spending One HALF of One Percent? You tell me, what percent of the budget this commercial is actually worth to you, and I’ll find a way to make it for that amount, …if you are SURE you think that’s how much it takes to get the results you’re after. You have to spend money to make it. What are you willing to spend, to make this amount?”
When they measure the up-front cost against the VALUE of what they will achieve (sales, or number of people changing a behavior, learning, whatever the metric), that’s the Value Proposition in action. We do this calculation a hundred times a day without being conscious of it, from deciding when/if to run a load of laundry today, to deciding on a home improvement project, what’s for lunch, or a change in careers. Cost isolated out of context is just scary, a negative figure, until you give it a context. That context can be how spending that amount NOW avoids spending MORE later. Or that the expense is actually an INVESTMENT, one that will return more than you put in. Salesmanship and marketing are all about connecting these costs and rewards in the customers’ mind, making a context and driving the relative value evaluation, so they decide for taking a risk on the investment.
The second thing that comes up in relation to value is that NOBODY gets an “Atta Boy” for saving money on a failed project. Failed but thrifty does not win promotions in most places. If a project goes a little bit over the planned budget but is wildly successful, nobody really is going to complain all that much. But if you skimp on the front end and deliver a product that totally bombs because of the cut corners, nobody around the boardroom table is going to say: “Well, at least we didn’t spend a lot on the commercial” (or whatever it was). That’s often followed closely by the opinion that “Video just doesn’t work for us, for what we want to communicate”.
No; what it really proved was that BAD, CHEAPLY DONE video doesn’t work for your needs. Other people are getting great results every day, they’re just not doing things the way YOU are doing them.
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Long ago I changed from hourly rate to job budget. The reason for this was that technology was both reducing capital costs and creating efficiencies of workflow. So I saw an opportunity to work out a price per finished minute that was based on many previous jobs and hinged around the average.
So then any efficiencies both from technology and also experience in setting up workflows paid off for me whilst the client had a surety of a quarantined amount to cover post. Being at the tail end, post often is asked to tighten the belt when poor location practices may have caused over runs.
That makes it in my interest to get involved early, give advice on workflow before shooting and work with editors to make the hand over smooth to reduce problems. Also it means when the client is in the room doing the mix or grade we are not both clock watching. I find that the client likes the surety, the value they get is not based on the budget but the final experience which I try to make fun. Removing the ‘can we afford the time to make the creative decision’ process has made it much better value for me and the client. When things go horribly wrong from their end they normally offer to cover extras.
It is a swings and roundabout approach. I do charge a hourly rate for reversioning of jobs however as they are wildly variable and it is to partially discourage too much frame fiddling when editors use a reversion to tweak the cut which creates exponential problems for reversioning sound. That normally says there wasn’t enough time for the fine cut and again I refuse to pay for that.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “”30 minutes of TV” does not cost the same per show, per episode, per minute.”
I think the problem is the word “flat.” It’s not “flat” as in one thing costs the same to everyone every time. It’s that, once they’ve told you what they want, you give them a price for the thing as a whole, instead of doing it hour by hour.
Since most of my business was 30 minute tv, I can tell you that I found this incredibly easy to navigate.
One show was on the water and in the wilderness. There was no such thing as a half-day shoot because I might have to hike an hour from an already remote location. Because it was nature doc stuff, I was shooting 10:1, easy. It’s still my favorite stuff to have ever edited, but it took a long time.
Another was land-based, local PM magazine kind of thing. A couple of larger segments, a couple smaller ones, colorful bumpers, out. Didn’t take a long time.
My “flat” rate for the nature episode was multiples of my “flat” rate for a PM magazine episode,
What I did NOT want to get into was, “Hey man, we didn’t have to hike for an hour to the location. We just drove right up to the ranger station. I want a 3-hour break on the price.”
Or on the magazine show, “You only interviewed one person in their office for this segment, instead of interviewing four people on location. It took you a third as much time to produce, so where’s my 60% discount?”
Nononononono. The price for YOUR project is the price…
…but the price is absolutely NOT the same for any two clients.
[Michael Gissing] “The reason for this was that technology was both reducing capital costs and creating efficiencies of workflow…
So then any efficiencies both from technology and also experience in setting up workflows paid off for me“
My emphasis added, because that’s crucial.
As I get better at my job, the hours each job takes go down. Why the hell would I pass that “savings” on to my client resulting in a smaller payment to ME, when I can just as easily give the client a better looking project because of my improving skill AND take more time off.
For me in practice, I was never able to shave enough time off projects to take on more clients. But 5 or 6 hours saved through better After Effects chops, less time for lighting setups, whatever, added up to a couple of extra days off every month, while producing better-looking work and keeping my rates UP, instead of my efficiency pressing them DOWN.
[Michael Gissing] “That makes it in my interest to get involved early, give advice on workflow before shooting and work…”
Also HUGE. True for hourly as well, but in practice, project pricing really did lead to much more collaborative relationships. Again, it being part of my branding that “I’m not at your disposal in exchange for an hour’s payment. My time is as valuable as yours.”
Needless to say, while the consultation made things more satisfying for both of us, my agenda was oriented toward making my life easier. LOL All part of maximizing my efficiency in ways that wouldn’t lower my rate, but WOULD increase my time off, and/or general sanity.
[Michael Gissing] “Removing the ‘can we afford the time to make the creative decision’ process has made it much better value for me and the clients. “
That was my favorite part: the pleasure when it feels more collaborative, which it can when nobody is watching the clock.
This assumes that you’ve done a good job with your internal estimates of how long things will take AND have a good relationship with a client who won’t abuse this flexibility, but I found that switching to project billing made all of my client relationships more enjoyable for both of us.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I think, as always, I’m being misunderstood in this thread”
complex statements dude, complex statements. We’re only discussing money. we all like that money where we don’t have to dig roads, or drive roads.
https://soundcloud.com/whatstech/what-is-the-singularity
[Jeremy Garchow] “Walter says higher cost does not equal value, which implies less cost equals value? Or value is a feeling that had nothing to do with cost?
“that’s has to be deflection.You’re punching the air.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Basically, I’m asking, how do you know when a flat fee is good value? And as a supplier, how is that calculated, and how do you know your client is getting a good value?
“you know it by calling the value of your participation?
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “that’s has to be deflection.You’re punching the air.
“I’m really not, bud.
Nevermind it.
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When a painter of carpenter comes to my house I do not expect to be charged for the use of the brushes or hammers.
I no longer charge for my computer and software when editing. It saves a boring conversation.
I do often suggest a client buys a system for a job (if it’s long form especially) and always (well almost) charge clients for storage.
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[James Ewart] “When a painter of carpenter comes to my house I do not expect to be charged for the use of the brushes or hammers.
“In my former life I worked as a drywall guy. tradesman definitely charge for there tools. In our case it came in the form of hourly rate being higher in order to pay for new tools expendibles etc. I have know many others who actually add in line items for new tools they need to get a certain job done.
Really I think tradesman are in the same boat as us video editors to charge for our tools or not.
Mike Jeffs
Production Services Manager
KPBS San Diego -
You’re paying for the tools, either way. But they’re useless without the skill of the man or woman wielding them.
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[Mark Suszko] “You’re paying for the tools, either way. But they’re useless without the skill of the man or woman wielding them.”
Absolutely. I do think sometimes people charge for their equipment as a way of bumping up their price.
I just charge all in and keep it simple.
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