Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress

[Charles Simonson]

Do you really find a significant difference between WMV9 “standard” (main) and WMV9 AP in quality vs data rate and file size?
Not so much with the WMVA fourcc (at least not with MS’s encoder), but definitely when using the WVC1 fourcc will you see many advantages to the quality of an encode at low bit rates compared to the main profile options.

“Intelligent Encoder” capable of variable frame rate. Haven’t seen that in software on the Mac side?
Compression Master can do half frame rate variable conversions depending on the frame rate for a particular time. I think Cleaner used to be able to do this as well, although I am not certain. Squeeze possibly can too.

I also don’t think cutting the frame rate in half cuts the file size in half. The encoder may have to do “more work” since the change in movement from frame to frame is now greater (especially for sports).
Technically, for most encoders, if you leave the settings the same, it will not cut the file size in half, that is correct. What it will do is provide better end quality per frame than a full frame rate encode would receive at the same file size. However, changing the frame rate to something lower allows you to encode at a much lower target bit rate, because you need many less bits per second, thus giving you a much smaller file size.

[Ryanservant]

Ok…..now we’re getting into stuff that im lost on…..I just did a nice little export from FCP to WMV. My settings were: WMV 9 standard, 2 pass vbr, quality 100%, 1000 bit rate, lower field first for input, 480X270 size, progressive output….and it looks good to me. It is 3.8 MB for 30 seconds…which means my 500 mb file est was off. So what is going to happen to a 300 mb file that plays from the web….will it take long to load….does it matter if my web site devoloper does something to the file to make it stream or something? ( i have no clue about streaming )

Ryan

G5
xserve 2.5 TB
FCP HD
2 gigs ram
Used to be Kona Hd…Now its Decklink HD pro

Ryan Servant
AirSeaLand Productions
http://www.airsealand.com
718-626-2646

[Craig Seeman]

I think you can drop the Quality to Zero doing 2 pass VBR. Give it a test on 30 seconds and see if you see any difference.

I’m curious what kind of internet connections the coaches will have. 1000kbps actually is ok in NYC metro but it could be an issue in areas where they only have slower DSL, satellite or equivalent. You might have to think about cutting the frame size a bit and you can cut the data rate with that.

Are you looking to keep these as complete 30minute duration files? If so buffer time can certainly be a factor on progressive download.

Going to a streaming server might be worth it but that does mean expense and it does mean mms or rtsp, etc rather than http. You’d then need to use CBR rather than VBR and that can have impact on quality especially with motion. You might want to try a 2 Pass CBR encode and see how you feel about the look. Streaming can give the viewer the ability to “skip” around but the file isn’t downloaded into the user’s cache.

There’s also the Quicktime Player vs the Windows Media Player interface. With progressive download I find it easier to “skip” back and forth (review a play again) and jog frame by frame in Quicktime Player.

[ryanservant] “My settings were: WMV 9 standard, 2 pass vbr, quality 100%, 1000 bit rate, lower field first for input, 480X270 size, progressive output….and it looks good to me. It is 3.8 MB for 30 seconds…which means my 500 mb file est was off. So what is going to happen to a 300 mb file that plays from the web….will it take long to load….does it matter if my web site devoloper does something to the file to make it stream or something? ( i have no clue about streaming )”

[Ryanservant]

Quality to zero? I will try that next i guess…..what bit rate would you go down to? Also I need to keep that frame size…they want it big. I am not sure about the streaming server thing..I will ask web company mon morn….

G5
xserve 2.5 TB
FCP HD
2 gigs ram
Used to be Kona Hd…Now its Decklink HD pro

Ryan Servant
AirSeaLand Productions
http://www.airsealand.com
718-626-2646

[Ryanservant]

I have to get the full version of flip 4 mac so I can really see how a larger file exports….right now I am watching 30 sec clips….I also want to see what my export time will be for a 30 min hdv clip to wmv hd. I am hoping it will be super fast on the quad g5….i am going to try and have promax do a test for me before i start buying up all this gear.

Ryan

G5
xserve 2.5 TB
FCP HD
2 gigs ram
Used to be Kona Hd…Now its Decklink HD pro

Ryan Servant
AirSeaLand Productions
http://www.airsealand.com
718-626-2646

[Craig Seeman]

[Charles Simonson] “”Intelligent Encoder” capable of variable frame rate. Haven’t seen that in software on the Mac side?
Compression Master can do half frame rate variable conversions depending on the frame rate for a particular time. I think Cleaner used to be able to do this as well, although I am not certain. Squeeze possibly can too.”

Please do explain. I’ve used all three and don’t see it or maybe I’m not looking at it the way you are. I’d want to set a “motion” or “delta” threshold so that when the amount of change from frame to frame drops below a point, the frame rate would drop.

I’d want to talk more about WMV9 AP and WVC1 but that might be a topic for another thread.

I see your point about being able to lower the data rate (and thus the file size still further) also in regards to cutting the frame rate. I’m stuck in my aesthetic bias against dropping the frame rate in all but “talking head” type content with little motion and it even bothers me there although that’s “a corner I’m willing to cut.”

[Craig Seeman]

Two answers in one place for those trying to follow this.

Yes do try setting Quality to Zero.

I can understand the need for a large frame size for what the coaches need to see. See if you can drop it to 800kbps.

I am thinking that if you’re doing progressive download you might try Quicktime H.264. The coaches may like the frame by frame jog in the Quicktime player. As Charles points out H.264 will give you great quality at lower bit rates (and therefore smaller file sizes). This does mean being able to “push” QT7 and they’ll have to have fairly “fast” computers for the decode demands H.264 puts on the system.

If the coaches want this kind of size, detail, control they you should stress the importance of “pushing” H.264. They can’t be hung by IT departments who refuse to allow QT7 or and update to QT7 though. You would provide a big fat obvious link to QT7 download and make it clear they need it. It they may not be happy with the results using a 6 year old cheap Windows box either.

I’m wondering how you’re finding HDV and handling fast motion too. Frame by frame jog may not be worth it. I have this vision of a coach wanting to jog through frame by frame to see how the receive pulls in a bullet pass into the flats. If HDV makes the motion of the ball and the receiver’s hands blurry . . . The Quicktime controllor can make it easy for them to go back and review a play over again though on a progressive download.

Flip4Mac 2.0.x has added a “complexity” controll which can speed encode (at quality price though) although there’s an “issue” with 2 pass VBR. I believe they’re going to work on speeding the encode on the next release of export. Another “hook” I’d like to see is being able to use “distributive rendering” in Compressor.