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Destructive edits
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “So I’m not sure that “destructive editing” is such a widespread term in image editing base on that (very limited) sample. In any case, Adobe seem to be careful about it’s use where they often use “non-destructive” as a term.”
Fair! Communicating with other designers, these words have pretty specific meanings, but it will be very hard for me to convince you of that based on the number of times it appears in Adobe documentation.
Here are a few other references where non-destructive is used the same way I outline above:
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/how-to/make-non-destructive-edits-camera-raw.html
https://tv.adobe.com/watch/learn-photoshop-cc/nondestructive-crops/
https://tv.adobe.com/watch/adobe-evangelists-russell-brown/using-lighting-effects/
https://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2012/12/demo-non-destructive-burndodge-in-photoshop.html“Destructive” is probably almost undefined here, because all image editors would have been de-facto “destructive” at their inception a couple decades ago. “Non-destructive” is frequently used to refer to the newer workflows which accomplish the same thing as the original raster-based workflows, but with greater flexibility.
But non-non-destructive is an awkward construct…
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[David Lawrence] “This is a great argument for why I consider the FCPX magnetic timeline highly destructive. If your editing workflow requires placing media objects in an absolute, external frame-of-reference for time, having the NLE rearrange those objects with every operation feels like editing in quicksand.”
And here’s a great argument for why you considered the word “destructive” sacrosanct, or why I’d always want to see its scope explicitly stated. 🙂
My question: is an NLE that recalculates absolute clip timing for you (according to strict rules and based on user input) analogous to an image editor that recalculates absolute pixel values for you (according to strict rules and based on user input)?
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Walter Soyka] “”Destructive” is probably almost undefined here, because all image editors would have been de-facto “destructive” at their inception a couple decades ago. “Non-destructive” is frequently used to refer to the newer workflows which accomplish the same thing as the original raster-based workflows, but with greater flexibility.
But non-non-destructive is an awkward construct…”
Walter,
Yes, but I think we are both interested for the same reasons here – the history of the lexicon.
I just think that the careful non-use of “destructive” contrasts with widespread use of “non-destructive”. It suggests they’re not comfortable with the label and probably for reasons that David has outlined.
Or, to put it another way, not non-destructive doesn’t necessarily mean destructive.
Franz.
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “I just think that the careful non-use of “destructive” contrasts with widespread use of “non-destructive”. It suggests they’re not comfortable with the label and probably for reasons that David has outlined.”
I don’t disagree, but that might also be a marketing decision. Who wants to sell a product with a destructive workflow?
People do talk about “destructive filters” although it seems it’s not documented by Adobe as such.
[Franz Bieberkopf] “Or, to put it another way, not non-destructive doesn’t necessarily mean destructive.”
As a logician, I know it must have pained you to write that.
If not non-destructive doesn’t mean destructive, maybe we should start a semantic discussion of the words “not” and “non.”
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Walter Soyka] “If not non-destructive doesn’t mean destructive, maybe we should start a semantic discussion of the words “not” and “non.””
But naan is so good!
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[Jeremy Garchow] “But naan is so good!”
It’s not bad!
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Walter Soyka] “And here’s a great argument for why you considered the word “destructive” sacrosanct, or why I’d always want to see its scope explicitly stated. :)”
Bingo! 😉
[Walter Soyka] “My question: is an NLE that recalculates absolute clip timing for you (according to strict rules and based on user input) analogous to an image editor that recalculates absolute pixel values for you (according to strict rules and based on user input)?”
Interesting question. In my mind, these are very different types of editorial operations.
I would argue that the NLE is the superset, because it allows both the processing of absolute pixels on a frame (image) level, as well as a collection of frames on a temporal level.
I don’t think of these operations the same way so for me personally, they’re not really analogous.
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David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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[Walter Soyka] “[Jeremy Garchow] “But naan is so good!”
It’s not bad!”
And Non-naan is a tortilla!
OK, I’ll see myself out, back to the debate.
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[David Lawrence] “don’t think of these operations the same way so for me personally, they’re not really analogous.”
That’s fair.
My follow-up: what is unique about a temporal operation that you would consider it differently than a spatial one?
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Jeremy Garchow] “[Walter Soyka] “[Jeremy Garchow] “But naan is so good!”
It’s not bad!”
And Non-naan is a tortilla!
OK, I’ll see myself out, back to the debate.”
You guys are giving me flashbacks of that show “Life”! 🙂
[Det. Charlie Crews] “I don’t not say things that other people don’t not say, but most other people don’t not say the same things I don’t.”
https://www.imdb.com/character/ch0028830/quotes
Shawn
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