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Destructive edits
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[Andy Neil] ” I think the best way I can put this is that I feel your definition is too broad and my argument is for a more specific definition. I agree that destructive doesn’t mean bad per se, but it should refer to irrevocable or at least immune to a quickly changed mind.”
That context helps me understand your position better, thanks.
Merging in Herb, who seems to share this position:
[Herb Sevush] “Hit undo, and it’s reversed. Most “destructive” operations don’t have an undo feature.”
This would mean that the only destructive operation in Photoshop (or nearly any application, for the matter) is Save. And even then, with Time Machine or Dropbox…
I guess now that image editing leans toward a broader definition of the term than editorial?
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Walter Soyka] “This would enable two killer features, which I’d think belong under the “Producer” menu:
1. Split the difference
2. Wait, I changed my mind on that other thing I said two days ago”That is funny!
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Sort of, except I wouldn’t go so far as to say a destructive edit is only destructive if you can’t hit undo. My reasoning behind this is that undos are linear (except in your Nuke example). So while a mistake quickly discovered can be undo’d with little hassle, one not notice for hours or longer it can be more work to undo since you must undo all the elements prior.
I like your idea of per clip undos although I confess it might be a nightmare to get used to or implement in something other than node based programs.
In Photoshop, I treat that definition the same. If you flatten two layers and undo it immediately, then no harm, no foul but it was a destructive edit just the same because you leave no original media in place. Just like that Avid audio mixdown, or completely overwriting a clip in X. But, if you Merge several layers to a new layer, leaving the original layers and turning them off, then I don’t consider that destructive since I have easy access to the original layers.
Make sense? At least to me it does.
Andy
https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos
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[Herb Sevush] “Hit undo, and it’s reversed. Most “destructive” operations don’t have an undo feature.”
Exactly right.
If it has undo, by definition it is not destructive.
Operator error is a poor argument for the redefinition of technical terms.
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[David Lawrence] “If it has undo, by definition it is not destructive.”
We are clearly working with different definitions or scopes.
I’m a designer, so I’m influenced by image editing. By your definition, there is literally no operation in Photoshop, other than save, that is destructive, because anything else has immediate undo. That makes the word destructive practically meaningless in many of these contexts, because a history stack is now so common.
I think that’s an incredibly restrictive definition that fails to capture the critical differences between tools that reversibly and irreversibly alter data — but I assume you think my definition is incredibly broad and fails to capture the seriousness of rewriting assets on disk.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Walter Soyka] “All you need to do is store a complete history alongside the current state.”
I think this is fine for node based things, but it does not account for editing where (sometimes) multiple adjustments need to be made to one clip and the clips around it, to make the edit work.
It’s an awesome idea, though, but the Producer menu is a terrible idea. Sorry.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I think this is fine for node based things, but it does not account for editing where (sometimes) multiple adjustments need to be made to one clip and the clips around it, to make the edit work.”
The same interplay between clips in an edit applies to nodes in a composite.
[Jeremy Garchow] “It’s an awesome idea, though, but the Producer menu is a terrible idea. Sorry.”
Fair enough. How about a Producer Panel? It’ll make recording engineers with “producer knobs” [link] feel right at home.
I’m kidding, of course. Some of my best friends are producers.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Walter Soyka] “Sorry, Andy, I’m not trying to be a jerk. Bill really got me thinking when he threw out the “d-word” in the other thread and got such a strong reaction.”
Since I’m ostensibly the cause of all this, I think it only fair to give everyone a look at the thinking that caused me to use the term in the first place.
When I started learning Legacy back in 1999 – I had to come to grips with the reality that if I had the urge to paste a 4 minute audio clip into track 3 at, say, the 1 minute mark while zoomed into a view that only showed me the track between 1 minute and 1:30 – I had to learn to STOP myself, and zoom out and make sure there was nothing useful or important on that track beyond the 1:30 mark.
To fail to do that meant that the paste operation totally obliterated any and everything downstream in the target zone of that track. Gone were all my decisions along with the timing of them. If I blindly continued to edit – I could bury that MISTAKE behind a bunch of further edit refinements. If I exceeded my Undo limit, and if my auto save parameters were too short – all my prior decisions became well and truly DESTROYED in the sense that they were completely and utterly irretrievable.
This is the context that I was employing when I used the term “destructive” That there was an extremely common functioning mode where the program was being used EXACTLY as indented by the designers where the proper operating of the program could OBLIDERATE – permanently and without recourse – editing decisions that I had not wished to lose.
In X – precisely because of the magnetic timeline and clip collision avoidance – that is now IMPOSSIBLE.
It was in that context that I used the term DESTRUCTIVE. To be precise: because a reasonable user – operating the software exactly as it’s designed – could expect in common circumstances for their prior editing decisions become completely and irretrievably permanently GONE unless they learnt precautionary behaviors and practiced them religiously.
The USER had to learn to avoid the situation. The program did not do it for you.
Timed auto saves and settable levels of UNDO are pointers to this reality. These were NOT “program malfunction” protections. They were “user screw up hedges” that were built into the very software.
So I stand by my use of the term.
Others will disagree. Fine.
That’s the point of debate.
Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.
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[Walter Soyka] “This would enable two killer features, which I’d think belong under the “Producer” menu:
1. Split the difference
2. Wait, I changed my mind on that other thing I said two days ago”This made my day, Walter.
We need the FULL “Producer menu” developed for this mode…
3. Replace fonts with something “friendlier”
4. Adjust all audio levels so that viewers hear them as correct.; )
Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.
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[Walter Soyka] “The same interplay between clips in an edit applies to nodes in a composite.”
Of course nodes all have an effect on each other, but nodes themselves don’t have the same relationship to time as an edit does.
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