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Beats by Dr. Dre???
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[Steve Connor] “Using the Position tool turns the magnetic timeline off leaving you free to place, move and trim clips on the timeline without ripple.”
That’s wrong Steve.
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/17555
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David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
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[David Lawrence] “That’s wrong Steve.
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/17555“
It’s not David, I know it’s one of your issues, but the fact is that gap clips are the only thing that ripple.
When you are familiar with the way the software works, and I know we’ve already had a huge debate about this, you IGNORE gap clips when using the position tool, you don’t touch them, you don’t trim them, they are simply spacers, you have no need to interact with them at all. You treat them the same as gaps on a Legacy storyline.
Steve Connor
“FCPX Agitator”
Adrenalin Television -
The more I read this forum and the longer FCP X sits in an unused Lion partition on by boot drive the more I want to dig in and make this thing work.
But I do have real work to do and even our switch from Leopard to Snow Leopard was fraught with little workflow stumbles (printer driver misbehaves, need to re-serialize apps, install new updates before we could move forward etc) on six FCP systems. Dragged us down for a few weeks with those nagging hang ups. But we’ve settled in…
So FCP X will eventually get my attention, just like that manuscript that has sat for a while, and those guitar lessons I keep saying I’ll take. And I can’t wait to snap a few clips together magnetically, then slide them away and snap ’em somewhere else.
Been with Apple since 1992 and they have rarely if ever disappointed me. Maybe Mac OS 6 wasn’t so great, but 7.1 was awesome!
Oh, I’ll get around to it.
When is NAB again?
Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
https://www.tiltmedia.com -
[Steve Connor] “Fair point , we all know what it’s lacking, but it is incorrect to state FCPX offers you forces you into ONE workflow”
I guess it’s how one looks at it. Once you start removing so much, you are left with a rather simplistic system that doesn’t give you many options. How do you define workflows? I’m not talking about editing styles, but rather using the NLE in the same way (within a larger ecosystem) as I have with FCP thus far.
BTW – I firmly believe that most of these things are gone and that Apple has no intention of bringing them back, except through third parties. That let’s them wash their hands of any responsibility to make these work or make sure they don’t break with an iTunes update or something like that 😉
In case you think I’m joking about that last flip comment, an iTunes update of a few month ago causes Alexa ProRes4444 files – generated with cameras on firmware 1.0 – to intermittently become unreadable on some machines.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Bill Davis] “It’s only true if you’re stuck in defining “workflow” as the way one particular type of editor wants to edit. “
That’s not how I define workflow. I’m talking about how you can use the NLE beyond just a cutting style within the NLE. However, even there, the point is that Apple has eliminated almost all of the versatility that was available in “legacy” simply by the GUI design itself.
[Bill Davis] “I can append, overwrite, connect, etc, etc. This is the absolute antithesis of “one workflow.””
You are talking about edit commands and keystrokes, not workflow. BTW – these aren’t unique. Apple simply collapsed target selection, track patching and editing into fewer commands. A Connected Clip edit command isn’t much different than Superimpose in “legacy”.
[Bill Davis] “The primary reality of FCP-X is that it’s a micro suite of five basic interconnected “work area” functions.”
I think you are making more out of this than is there. Every NLE software amounts to the same thing as what you’ve described.
[Bill Davis] “Those are the Event Library and the new Timeline construct. “
Apple simply copied what Avid did in 1988 – only they didn’t do as good of a job with FCP X.
[Bill Davis] “EXTREMELY useful and fully featured”
Useful – yes. Fully featured??? Not even close.
[Bill Davis] ” it will look like a step backwards – but once you see what it really is, its just as easy to see where it might fit in a new world of rapid and agile content distribution.”
I’ll believe that when I can have 100 projects instantly accessible without the system choking.
[Bill Davis] “I believe this tool is better for more diverse editing than Legacy ever was.”
I simply don’t agree, because today, I can do more with FCP 7 than I can with FCP X and in many cases, than I can with Media Composer or Premiere Pro.
[Bill Davis] “here’s a wider array of tools you can use to do things that you couldn’t do as easily before.”
I’d really like to see examples of that, because I just don’t see it. Yes, I understand the metadata methods and I see where you might see that as a wide array of new tools, but what about the rest of the app?
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
If everybody on this forum would look at FCPX for what it really is, I think we could all sleep easier at night.
FCPX was / is a totally different but completely unfinished NLE that was pushed out the door at least a year early, by a leadership style, that wanted to upstage a competitor at a trade show.
When the big Q1 release comes out, I would suspect we will have a much better understanding of what X is supposed to be. I also suspect there will be a lot more than just external monitoring and multicam, out by the end of the year.
The actions of Apple in February, April, and June, hurt a lot of people, but all you have to do is read the biography to understand what;s going on. Hopefully FCPX will mature into what the NLE it shows the potential to be. If not well….don walker
texarkana, texasJohn 3:16
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[Oliver Peters] “[Bill Davis] “It’s only true if you’re stuck in defining “workflow” as the way one particular type of editor wants to edit. ”
That’s not how I define workflow. I’m talking about how you can use the NLE beyond just a cutting style within the NLE. However, even there, the point is that Apple has eliminated almost all of the versatility that was available in “legacy” simply by the GUI design itself.
That’s your point and I accept it. Mine is that everything above after the word “eliminated” is simple opinion. Nothing wrong with expressing an opinion. But everyone understands that opinions are not facts.
[Bill Davis] “I can append, overwrite, connect, etc, etc. This is the absolute antithesis of “one workflow.””
You are talking about edit commands and keystrokes, not workflow. BTW – these aren’t unique. Apple simply collapsed target selection, track patching and editing into fewer commands. A Connected Clip edit command isn’t much different than Superimpose in “legacy”.
I don’t see it that way. I superimposed clips a thousand times in Legacy. They never maintained any relationship to the clip they were imposed upon. Move the main clip and the relationship between the super and the timeline shifted. The only way to easily fix the relationship was to “sub clip” or possibly “sub-sequence” things. Maybe functional, but obscure and needlessly complex, IMO. And a process that forced you to “packetize” the project in ways that extracted it’s own penalty.
So i’m not convinced.
[Bill Davis] “The primary reality of FCP-X is that it’s a micro suite of five basic interconnected “work area” functions.”
I think you are making more out of this than is there. Every NLE software amounts to the same thing as what you’ve described.
I guess this is one of those things like when the guy asked Mr. Armstrong to explain Jazz. “Sorry, but I don’t think I can explain it to you. You either understand it or you don’t.” That’s not any kind of slam by the way. It’s just an attempt to indicated that I see things as an X user that I think require a new context to appreciate. I might well be ignorant and other software may already do everything that X can do. But if so, then I’m REALLY baffled as to what the big deal about it being so over radical that it threatens the very lifeblood of working editors planet wide.
It’s either a total departure (right or wrong) or it’s just another choice. It can’t be both, can it?
[Bill Davis] “Those are the Event Library and the new Timeline construct. ”
Apple simply copied what Avid did in 1988 – only they didn’t do as good of a job with FCP X.
Then why didn’t Avid better compete with FCP Legacy? Were they simply ahead of their time? Overpriced? Poor salespeople? If X is so derivative – nothing but a cheaper Avid approach – again, why all the hate? What’s wrong with offering what AVID did in 1988 – but for $299. Sounds like a huge win to me.
[Bill Davis] “EXTREMELY useful and fully featured”
Useful – yes. Fully featured??? Not even close.
Then explain to me what “features” that it’s lacking that the general video editor must have? This argument only works in context of specific needs of editors working in very narrow bands of the overall editing profession. I accept that it doesn’t do ALL that legacy did. But I contend that nearly ALL editors don’t need “ALL” of what legacy did. You were forced to pay for and live with all sorts of capabilities that might make you “feel good” to have waiting for use – but in a practical sense, many editors (and I was one of them) never came close o needing some of those.(For instance I’ve never had the luxury of working with an outside scoring house or a color correction professional. I know the value of that for those that need it. But I don’t need it or wish to be charged for it. What’s wrong with that?
[Bill Davis] ” it will look like a step backwards – but once you see what it really is, its just as easy to see where it might fit in a new world of rapid and agile content distribution.”
I’ll believe that when I can have 100 projects instantly accessible without the system choking.
OK. Fine. Just don’t forget that you may not be able to have that if there are 100,000 people in line ahead of you who find that having 10 or 20 concurrent projects do a fine job of meeting their needs.
[Bill Davis] “I believe this tool is better for more diverse editing than Legacy ever was.”
I simply don’t agree, because today, I can do more with FCP 7 than I can with FCP X and in many cases, than I can with Media Composer or Premiere Pro.
Yes, I understand that. But X is not legacy. Look, my Motorola V-99 phone had a great contacts list that I could sync with my computer. When they discontinued it, the new model had no software to continue the sync. So for a whole phone generation, I lost the capability. Eventually, part of the reason I went to the iPhone was because I was frustrated with that fact. If you need to change software to obtain satisfaction, feel free. I don’t find I have to. And I’m grateful for that.
[Bill Davis] “here’s a wider array of tools you can use to do things that you couldn’t do as easily before.”
I’d really like to see examples of that, because I just don’t see it. Yes, I understand the metadata methods and I see where you might see that as a wide array of new tools, but what about the rest of the app?
One tiny example. In the share menu, there’s an incredibly easy way to email low rez copes of your timeline directly to clients from inside the app. It’s a small marriage of “in the program interface” email and clip compression. It’s made my client approval dubs “insanely” easy to generate.
I also love how the Project Library allows me to glance at an array of Projects and see which version of a project has a visual change in it. That I can scrub through these and hone in on changes, different titles, or alt cuts is a treat.
I also love how simply loading up drives ” auto repopulates” the Project Library with no need to manually re-load projects or assets. If the drive is present, the project come to life. Take a drive off line, and the links go dormant, which, unlike Legacy, means I don’t have to manage huge “Capture Scratches” any more. NAS guys had this, but I didn’t. And now I do.
That’s three small touches among many. But a few “top of mind” ones that makes me enjoy using the software.
– Oliver
““Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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[Steve Connor] “Using the Position tool turns the magnetic timeline off …”
[Steve Connor] “the fact is that gap clips are the only thing that ripple. “
Steve, with all due respect, this is demonstrably incorrect. Everything in the Primary Storyline always ripples. You cannot turn off this behavior. Same with Secondary Storylines.
The Position Tool is the functional equivalent of the Overwrite Segment Tool on the Avid. It overwrites and automatically creates filler (gap) as needed. This is not the same as turning off ripple on the timeline!
[Steve Connor] “When you are familiar with the way the software works, and I know we’ve already had a huge debate about this, you IGNORE gap clips when using the position tool, you don’t touch them, you don’t trim them, they are simply spacers, you have no need to interact with them at all. You treat them the same as gaps on a Legacy storyline.”
Gaps are objects with the same object behaviors as clips. They hold sync for connected clips. You can’t ignore them, you have to deal with them.
Here’s a simple example, in case you missed it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72Pc56peq98
As I wrote before:[David Lawrence] “This is a very typical J/L-cut scenario with multiple audio sources. The connected clips are connected to the gap because that creates the correct sync relationship between them. All I want to do is move this connected group by a few frames or so to fix the pacing. I don’t care about overwriting the primary. I can’t use the select tool and holding down the option key doesn’t help. The position tool is supposed to let you place objects anywhere you want so I use the position tool. I think this is a totally reasonable thing to want to do based on the tool’s intended purpose. If you disagree, please explain.”
Let’s talk about trimming.
How do you perform an Overwrite Trim in FCPX? Without interacting with gaps? Seriously, I really want to know.
Trimming in the storyline is always ripple trim. If you don’t want to ripple, you have to trim the gap object.
For example, let’s say I want to trim back a clip left without affecting program length. The only way to do this is by performing a rolling trim with the gap to the right.
As far as I can tell, FCPX is the only NLE that makes you overwrite trim this way. You have to deal with both the clip and the gap. How is this easier or better?
I realize we’ve discussed this ad nauseum and I apologize for harping on the subject. But when I hear anyone claim that the Position Tool “turns off” the magnetic timeline, I really have to push back.
It’s simply incorrect. You’re confusing a tool mode with a timeline mode. They’re not the same thing and it’s important to understand the difference.
_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
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[Don Walker] “FCPX was / is a totally different but completely unfinished NLE that was pushed out the door at least a year early, by a leadership style, that wanted to upstage a competitor at a trade show.”
I’ve been saying that myself since last June 21st, so no argument there.
[Don Walker] “When the big Q1 release comes out, I would suspect we will have a much better understanding of what X is supposed to be. I also suspect there will be a lot more than just external monitoring and multicam, out by the end of the year. “
Lots and lots of tea leaves swirling around in this statement though…
[Don Walker] “The actions of Apple in February, April, and June, hurt a lot of people, but all you have to do is read the biography to understand what’s going on.”
Personally, I find this part of your message to be “guilt by inference.” To the best of my knowledge, Walter Isaacson’s bio never mentions FCPX, and whether it reveals anything definitive about the problems with associated with release of FCPX or the EOL of FCP legacy is really more conjecture and maybe wishful thinking than I’m prepared to acknowledge.
[Don Walker] “Hopefully FCPX will mature into what the NLE it shows the potential to be. If not well….”
No one wants it to fail, except maybe AVID, Adobe, Sony, Canopus, etc., but if it does, your “If not well…” will translate into an incredible blunder, and a huge waste of resources and time for all concerned, and it will most likely become one of those well-studied failures, like Classic Coke and the Ford Edsel, as others have suggested.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
https://www.drwfilms.comDon’t miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing “The Whale” to the Big Screen:
https://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfitandSuzanneChisholm/1POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.
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[Bill Davis] “It’s just an attempt to indicated that I see things as an X user that I think require a new context to appreciate.”
With all due respect, you seem to approach these topics as if you are the only one using FCP X and that if someone only used it, they would like it, as you do. There are plenty of people who are just as familiar with how to use the software and have decided that it just hasn’t been well-designed, misses a lot of necessary features or simply doesn’t meet their needs. Since its release, I have been using FCP X every chance I can to shake it out on real jobs. It still hasn’t advanced beyond a love-hate relationship for me. Sure it’s fun to edit with at times, but I don’t see it as faster or particularly innovative. Just different for the sake of being different.
My 2 cents, of course. I like FCP 7 and would have loved to have seen some type of mash-up between the two. The software was easily released a year too early, but I think Apple’s path is pretty clear. The next Q1 update will likely make that more clear. Unfortunately, listening to its customers doesn’t seem to be part of Apple’s equation. If it were, we would have some choices within the app, which was the basis of your original post, I believe. Those who have been sitting on the fence in wait for that release will probably decide.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com
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