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ALEXA vs. RED?
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This Toolkit provides a conversion tool that will generate a new set of ARI files from the S-Two DPX frames.
And double the required storage. I’m happy with Robert’s Cineon/DPX Toolkit but I don’t have any need for ARRIRAW Toolkit right now. Pomfort Silverstack will chew through a day’s worth of s.two footage overnight just fine giving me a nice batch of quicktime dailies with all metadata embedded. When the cut is finished a simple CMX3600 EDL is sent to a colorist along with the original DPX’s. The problem is clients buy grading hours not copying-every-take-to-the-grading-station-array hours and moving-files-around hours. That’s why I have to pull the shots out. Just like the do with camera negative.
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I am working on a workflow for ARRIRAW (and Phantom Cine raw.)
You should be able to do a number of things in FCP very easily.
(Online/Offline conform, Realtime Color/EI/White Point changes, and ARRIRAW playback.)I am going to try to have a version ready for the Alexa release.
bob.
Robert Monaghan, CEO
Glue Tools LLC
629 State St. Suite 220
Santa Barbara, CA, 93101
United Statestel: +1 805 456 7997
fax: +1 805 456 7998 -
Hi Michael,
After doing some reading of this thread, it appears that you are a bit a bit out of the loop on some of the products out there. Understandable, as you need to have a workflow that is solid.
– S.Two has yet to support ARRIRAW v3.0 headers. (This is a big deal.. I have been told that they are completing support for this new file format.)
– Codex and Keisoku Giken do support ARI files, and should also support v3.0 before the Alexa is released.
– Several vendors support ARRIRAW now.I have been building a brand new suite to tools to retrofit Final Cut Pro to do a proper conform. This is regardless of the image format. The tool is designed to work with DPX frames, as well as ARRIRAW and Phantom Cine files.
Specifically for ARRIRAW (and eventually Phantom Cine files) you can apply ARRI’s color science to a ProRes movie, to do Exposure and Color Temperature adjustments
—- without Rendering —-
Once you have your choices are made, you can quickly conform to the ARRIRAW files, and have the changes preserved. (The software will even update the ARRIRAW v3.0 file with the new changes.
We have also added the ability to use CDL as well as 1D,3x1D and 3D LUTs on the timeline, too.I’ve worked closely with ARRI for over a year to get this built. It will make an ARRI workflow as easy as a ProRes only workflow, but permits the same powerful image manipulation capabilities as RAW.
I hope to have the tool available for the end of June.
A Quick Question..
I know for a fact that 2K DPX is exactly the same data size as 2K ARRIRAW. So if you were to do 2k DPXs, wouldn’t your data requirements be the same if you converted your R3D footage to DPX?bob..
Robert Monaghan, CEO
Glue Tools LLC
629 State St. Suite 220
Santa Barbara, CA, 93101
United Statestel: +1 805 456 7997
fax: +1 805 456 7998 -
[Robert Monaghan] “After doing some reading of this thread, it appears that you are a bit a bit out of the loop on some of the products out there. Understandable, as you need to have a workflow that is solid. “
We are not in the camera rental business. We edit, create VFX and grade. We don’t pick a recorder. We work with whatever production hired.
[Robert Monaghan] “I have been building a brand new suite to tools to retrofit Final Cut Pro to do a proper conform. This is regardless of the image format. The tool is designed to work with DPX frames, as well as ARRIRAW and Phantom Cine files. “
That’s great news. With all its shortcomings FCP will beat any high end software at simple task like comparing an offline cut to the scans assembly. If FCP could actually move DPX around like it can move QT Movies that would save weeks of time.
[Robert Monaghan] “A Quick Question..
I know for a fact that 2K DPX is exactly the same data size as 2K ARRIRAW. So if you were to do 2k DPXs, wouldn’t your data requirements be the same if you converted your R3D footage to DPX? “Only the footage, that goes into the cut gets converted. That’s no more than 2TB. As for converting vs working native it is good grading and compositing tools start to support RAW workflow but if I start sending untrimmed takes to the VFX guys they seen will go on strike.
Look, there is some misunderstanding here and I believe it is becvause we don’t specify what kind of projects we are talking about. If it is a 30 sec TV spot with 20 minutes of source footage it will fly through any facility at full speed no matter what’s the source format. If it is a feature film where footage comes in chunks over several weeks on slow external drives, takes tons of storage space and are not required for any work for month until the picture is locked managing files becomes a serious task.
Let’s say you have an editing seat and a grading seat. Both have good DAS arrays, fast and big. Where do you copy the footage coming from the set? You don’t. Because it will interfere with whatever current work is going on. You make a “workprint” and give it to your editor. You back up your transfer disk to LTO. And you keep your transfer disk until the picture is locked and it is time to “cut the negative”. That’s where you need a conform utility.
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So, if you are only converting the necessary R3Ds to DPX that are being used in your project, you would still have a project the same size as ARRIRAW.
🙂
What you describe sounds like a typical of a production. But as soon as you take your select-edit and covert it to DPX, you are using the same amount of space as your ARRIRAW select-edit. 2k RGB DPX is 10 to 12 megs, and 2k ARRIRAW is 9.5 Megs. The DPX frame has its color/EI levels and other info “Baked in”, where the ARRIRAW can still be reconfigured to look different. (Realtime, too, as the imagery isn’t compressed.)
Anyways, every facility has their own workflow. Yours is no exception. I don’t doubt that before long, you will find a sophisticated SAN system that is inexpensive for what it does. Disk Space is really cheap these days — and it is getting cheaper by the hour. I bought a used Apple 7TB X-Raid for $2000 USD – this is pretty amazing to me! I could network it between a handful of test systems and access the data. Its old and slow. But it gets the job done for a few thousand dollars. Not a production worthy setup, but it does allow me to simulate SAN environments.
I am really really curious to get some feedback. Drop me a note. I will show you what I am building.
bob..
Robert Monaghan, CEO
Glue Tools LLC
629 State St. Suite 220
Santa Barbara, CA, 93101
United Statestel: +1 805 456 7997
fax: +1 805 456 7998 -
[Robert Monaghan] “So, if you are only converting the necessary R3Ds to DPX that are being used in your project, you would still have a project the same size as ARRIRAW. “
You are right of course, but the irony is the project size is roughly the same even if I don’t convert R3D to DPX before grading. There is no way to trim R3D. Well, The Foundry announced Storm but we haven’t tried it yet.
We aren’t committed 100% to either pre-debayer or native. We tried both and there is no clear winner. Our colorist is happy to have extra bits but too often there is just noise in those bits.
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WOW:
This thread just says to me i need to think long and hard.
On hearing and seeing the Alexa i was really intrigued. I do mostly work for Television. Ads, Music videos, broadcast design, stuff like that. I’ve been using a RED ONE for about a year and a half now and i love it to death, it has helped raise the bar with my work in so many ways it has been unimaginable. I can do things my P2 & Letus could never do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6WxzS6Zmc (our first RED shoot)NOW with the Alexa going directly to prores and the Alexa having a 3.5K sensor (which is plenty res if you ask me)and 13 efin stops or DR, it puts me in a kind of tail spin.
AND because of the RED i’ve been in negotiations to do 2 full length features. The ArriRAW option can be adopted (on an as needed basis)for the features.My only thing is the price tag of 50K euro, which i do think is a great price but for us in the Caribbean a bit of a stretch.
No i don’t own a RED we rent it but its part of our mainstay these days. But i need to make a decision so that we can keep more money in house rather than spending it on rentals
Tough choice. Need some advice and thoughts
And i know there are 2 other versions of the Alexa due out, what are the features of those, sensor wise etc etc.?
HVX200, RED ONE, FCS and more,
High End, Production & Post Production
in the Caribbean
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Something to consider:
Green Screen compositing with existing Digital Camera technology requires a fair bit of work after the shoot. Some people ran into problems with low-light subjects and trying to pull a clean key. Judging from what I have seen, this won’t be the case with the Alexa. Depending upon the shots that you have to take, the Alexa *could* save you man-hours as far a compositing is concerned.Naturally, there are tonnes of variables to take into account. But a tool that can deliver cleaner plates, means less time for an artist to do their compositing jobs.
Just a thought..
bob.
Robert Monaghan, CEO
Glue Tools LLC
629 State St. Suite 220
Santa Barbara, CA, 93101
United Statestel: +1 805 456 7997
fax: +1 805 456 7998 -
Great initial thread.
Getting back to the original question.
RED one changed things. It has obviously made ARRI rethink the D21 and present an offering that is more in line with what RED ONE customers got.
In terms of business, the single most interesting thing will be too see what happens this television shooting season. The ALEXA will be rolled out in june and I am guessing that many TV series will go with a PRORES 4444 workflow, knowing they get all the film style goodies, with a direct to edit, no transcoding, workflow. Thanks to RED, all of the data management for this type of pipeline is worked out. This means that the ALEXA could get a jump on EPIC fore series episodical work, reality TV, MOW and a large bulk of TV production just based on their reputation and PRORES module alone.
Strangely EPIC may end up being in the (perceptively more prestigious) feature film category because their workflow is more lightweight, established and better suited to offline online that the “current” ARRI offering.
DP’s are going to like the ALEXA for the optical viewfinder and the WYSIWYG monitoring and look of PRORES 4444.
It’s going to be interesting for sure, but ARRI has pointed this camera at the largest and growing section of the marketplace with “options” to shoot feature film.
With RED, the (soon to be rolled out) SCARLET program may have taken a hit with DSLR sales going through the roof and major series experimenting and doing full episodes.
EPIC, with an H.264 module can not match the ARRI SHOT>EDIT claim because as we all know the H.264 is most likely going to need a transcode.
Interesting times.
Strangely, POST may have a bigger impact on the outcome than the camera performance itself.
David
Peace
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I think the Alex workflow is about 1000x better for either TV episodic work or Film.
Why DeBayer at all?
The offline cutting of ProRes 4444 and linking back / onlining to Arri Raw is perhaps even easier and more efficient than how you must work with RED now.
And the fact that ProRes 4444 could be used as a mastering / filmout format makes it even better to offline from.
Anyhow, we’ll see…
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