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AE drives the NLE decision
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[Jeremy Garchow] “can’t be used in more of a manner like FCPX’s Event tagging, and data aggregation and sort system.”
I’ve got an interesting rejoinder to that – a guy I know who roadtested FCPX very seriously for nearly twelve months, before his company pulled the plug had a few things to say about it.
Primarily – it dealt with group workflow. At an operational level, they found it basically unworkable. When I say this I mean he was literally gesticulating in frustration saying things like “how do you work with this?” and “the amount of files it leaves everywhere” I didn’t over press him on the point, we were in a bar, but this was a place that had a brand level interest in maintaining the relationship. They effectively gave it everything.
then they gave up, met repeatedly with adobe, and are re-architecting a 100-1000 level post facility around PPro and anywhere.
Nevermind the issues with the timeline, the one off environment outside of tracked timelines that it asks you to walk into and acclimatise to. Nevermind the point that it is on rails as an editing system funnelling editing behaviour.
nevermind all that – you’re a booster jeremy right? Or at least someone who is well involved in exploring the possibilities – do you think FCPX is a functional editing system in a group post environment? or is likely to be? And if so why?
isn’t there a reason why its sweet spot is solo editors in fast turnaround?
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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[Greg Andonian] “Going from Premiere to AE is like switching to another mode in the same application.”
so there’s this. the FCP/AE user base, that cross pollination creative editor that lived within FCP – that is basically a pacific ocean?
They are not going to Avid, because it’s godawful coming from FCP and because there is no market pressure to do so – FCP is Rip Van Winkle.
They are not going to FCPX, because let’s be serious.
Once PPro7 hits – that’s pretty much it effectively. It’s minted software. Adobe are after carving out occam’s razor for a gigantic, gigantic number of people.How they do not get the brass ring, and run avid into the ground with anywhere – it is really hard to see. Anywhere kills interplay and sphere right?
it commoditises it?https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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[Jeremy Garchow] “As Greg mentions, Pr CS Next will allow you to import parts of another project.
This means that you have to be able to have access to that project.
This, in some way, is similar to importing an FCPX XML, but with an enhanced “browse” type of feature.
“What? Jeremy – those are in no way similar scenarios. to put it mildly?
In PPro 7, I have live access to another PPro project in process, the contents update live in the media browser. I can hover scrub the footage items, grab clips or sequences, and there is also no master clip duplication when I grab the assets.
how exactly are you comparing that workflow to an XML?
that said we’ll need to see it in action, but to compare the above to a static XMl file is a pretty weird conclusion.
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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[David Lawrence] “[Jeremy Garchow] “I just don’t see this as news that Adobe After Effects, Photoshop, and Illustrator are being taught to students and students are using them to get high quality work done.
Hasn’t it been this way for some time now?
Out of all the video tools I’ve used, After Effects is the one I’ve been using the longest.”
Oh, I completely agree. I think the point is now that Premiere has received major enhancements — many in direct response to FCP Legacy user requests — it’s now poised to join them in the NLE space.
“Its funny. This statement makes me reflect on all the different directions we come from. When I think about what video tool I’ve used the longest, across all of the NLEs going back to linear, I can’t escape the fact that one single program–MS Word–connects them all. I’m a writer who became a producer who became an editor. Photoshop would probably be second. “Farph!,” you say. “Word ain’t no video tool.” But, I beg to differ.
And, yes–this is just an aside. I am in no way arguing that choice of Word Processor will dictate choice of NLE.
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “nevermind all that – you’re a booster jeremy right? Or at least someone who is well involved in exploring the possibilities – do you think FCPX is a functional editing system in a group post environment? or is likely to be? And if so why? “
I’m a booster, if you’re a booster.
I just want to pick what is going to be best now and in the near future. I am kicking FCPX’s tired in a shared environment and I find a lot of aspects of it to be be pretty good actually. FCPX is really really good at grouping things together, but we’ve had that discussion before.
Yes, I think it will likely be easy to use in a shared environment. In some ways it already is and has a user check in check out system built in. It is not perfect, don’t let me overstate it.
I don’t know how often you share projects with other editors. The way that I find that this works with FCPX is pretty good. I am sure I am in the minority. As far as shared workflows go, we are no where near Hearst Television, but I find that there are tools in FCPX that are good. The Project XML example was one of them, where not only do you get the timeline, you also get the organization of the sending editor, if you choose to use it.
I think that it will be a functional editing system in a shared environment because it can already function in a shared environment.
I could also extrapolate, using existing technologies and functions already capable in OSX, but I won’t as people don’t like to hear about what may be anymore, they would rather hear about the now.
[Aindreas Gallagher] “When I say this I mean he was literally gesticulating in frustration saying things like “how do you work with this?” and “the amount of files it leaves everywhere” “
It took me a minute to work with it, too, as well as a few feature updates from Apple. Also, as far as the amount of files, Pr has it’s fair share of cache and XMP files it can litter, Avid has an explosion of a file structure, and many of Smoke’s underlying files are hidden out of view, but amass a great quantity of files. FCPX’s render files and alias files are pretty simple to deal with if you need to deal with them. All NLE’s require a bit of file housekeeping.
Also, any Project folder structure you create in the Project Library is exactly mirrored in the Finder. It’s really couldn’t be much easier, but it certainly works differently than anything else. I know you’ve seen this screen grab that I have posted before:
I am not scared of different file structures and different ways of working, I just want to work better.
I have less and less time to do more and more work, the demand of lots of content in an really timely manner has only increased with the advent of faster technology.
A sizzle core beast ins’t going to help me tell a story faster, but an efficient way to get the ever increasing amount of original and found material grouped and organized will help get the job done faster. I can’t be the only editor on the planet feeling that pressure and being asked to do more with less time.
Jeremy
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “What? Jeremy – those are in no way similar scenarios. to put it mildly?”
Look at the results, not the action.
When you need something from another editor, what do you really want? Perhaps you do need to browse their project, for me, it’s most likely not.
You probably simply need a bin or a timeline, sometimes a whole project.
With FCPX, I File > Import an XML and I get a timeline and organization (keyword collections, et al).
With Pr, i would open someone else’s project, browse what I need to look for and import it. I would get what I choose to import, at least that’s how I understand it from what I have read so far.
So, to me, it’s basically a “File > Import”, and you get what you need. Pr allows you to search and scrub for it if necessary, FCPX imports what was given to you. I don’t see them as all that different. When you are sharing something, at least in my experience, it’s not a search and rescue mission. Usually, if I am receiving or sending something to someone else, it is a very specific bit of organization or timeline.
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Having never used the XML export/import feature in FCPX and never used CS7 I just want to say that one thing I really like about Avid is the ability to open another editor’s bin (as well as manipulate projects at the Finder level). Giving/receiving of things can happen invisibly in the background w/o anyone having to stop what they are doing. Working on big shows with a lot of editors and assists it’s a god send. Part of the reason I like it is probably because I like being able to get what I need w/o having disrupt someone else in the process. I am the type of person that likes aisle seats on planes because if I need to get up and use the restroom I won’t disturb anyone.
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Picking up on something Bill said about specialising. I grade & sound post and increasingly want to add image manipulation and graphics to the specialities. So my base is getting a bit broader. That said, I prefer to get image and graphic work done by specialists and the ones I know all use AE. So it makes sense increasingly for me to use the AE/ Pr route for finishing timelines post grade with da Vinci Resolve.
So in a way I agree with Oliver’s original asserting that AE, as a must have tool in many facilities and for many one off editors, makes the logic of the Pr integration and the relative clumsiness of X to AE to push NLE choice, particularly in an environment where there is less specialisation. So I can see AE’s role in pushing Pr both for specialists like myself and generalists who need a complete integrated toolset.
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Well said, Andrew.
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[Andrew Kimery] Having never used the XML export/import feature in FCPX and never used CS7 I just want to say that one thing I really like about Avid is the ability to open another editor’s bin (as well as manipulate projects at the Finder level). Giving/receiving of things can happen invisibly in the background w/o anyone having to stop what they are doing.
I don’t know about project manipulation at the finder level, but going through the Media Browser in the next Premiere you CAN import or browse the contents of bins from another project, even while someone else is working on the project they’re in. I also like this better than the XML route, because the person you’re getting things from doesn’t have to stop what they’re doing and export anything.
On another note (and going back to the original topic of the thread), you can also import a Premiere sequence into After Effects while the project is open in Premiere. For collaboration workflows, that could also help speed things up compared to the FCPX – to – AE route.
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“Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine… But after this windmill it’s the future or bust.”
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