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Absolutely flabergasted! 25 y.o. crew member gives my client his business card
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Who said I did? I am simply saying that would solve the problem and I know some people who have done it. Can I see a copy of your rules? Haha. Like what do you want from me. Go troll somewhere else
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My point is that a contract will very rarely stop something like this. If a freelancer you are using for one day has such low ethics or common sense that they would hand over cards when working for you, a contract most likely wouldn’t STOP them doing it. I wanted to see your contract because I thought maybe you had an enlightened view on how to stop someone from doing this, and then reclaim future lost earnings from someone who poaches a client after a harmless exchange of business cards whilst on your money.
It wouldn’t protect you after the event either – it would already have happened, and unless you SAW them doing it you would be none the wiser. You can withhold $250, but so what? It has already happened – you might have had YOUR clients head turned.
Ethics and responsibility have a massive place in OUR industry. Young and old professionals need to respect their colleagues.
I’m not trolling Sebastian – I’m pretty upset for Ned that this has happened, but I don’t think that a contract for a one day freelancer would solve the problem. Sure-if you were employing someone for weeks and there were thousands of pounds/dollars being exchanged, then it is common sense to have a contract. But as most of us like to trust the professional they are hiring, a contract that says “you are prohibited from handing out business cards” wouldn’t be the first thing on their minds. The contract with the end client would be. I’m nowhere near as experienced as Ned or as many of the other professionals on this forum, but I do employ people on a weekly basis.
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Now, boys, don’t make me turn this car around! This is not USENET, we keep it civil here. Don’t make me wake Zelin!
Sebastian, maybe part of the push-back on your comment comes from the fact you just joined and your profile section tells us nothing about where you’re coming from in terms of your experience. If you could maybe give us a little of that… you don’t have to list your turn-ons and turn offs or how you like long walks on the beach or whatever. But some resume’ highlights or a URL to an online reel could help. This is NOT challenging your expertise or right to comment, but merely specifying what that expertise is in.
Now, Sebastian, what I want to say about your comment is that your personal philosophy about the topic may work for you, but in the experience of a majority of pros in this forum, it is considered very bad form and borderline unethical to market yourself to the client of the guy that hired you, most especially, while still on the job for that client. In terms of dating relationshis, this is like a woman suddenly leaving the guy that took her out on a date, to go across the dance floor and give another guy her number.
The comment about getting blackballed for this kind of activity is dead-on true, and you can like it or not. But that is the way it has always been, and I will tell you further that Millennials or not, that’s the way it will continue to be. It is in all our economic best self-interest, and yours, that the tradition continues.
I understand this is not the typical Craig’s List mentality, where people will do anything for a rapidly-decreasing buck. But this IS a business of personal relationships, where a man’s or woman’s reputation is the currency. Most of the good jobs, the best jobs, come through referrals. From the Producer’s side as well as the clients side. What you can do to market yourself while in another’s employ is different from what you can do when you are the only one involved. Ask any corporation HR department what they think of an employee who does personal work on company time. As the sound man, the kid was a sub-contractor working within Ned’s organization.
The protocol for that, is that subs do NOT engage the client with self-promotion. This undermines the authority of the guy that hired you to work for HIM, and it complicates his financial dealings with the client that BTW is in the end, PAYING BOTH OF YOU. The established protocol is that if the client wants to talk to you about working on another job, in any context, that conversation has to go thru the person that hired you as intermediary. The contractor gets first crack at giving you that additional work, thru his office. Often, if you approach the contractor as soon as this request happens, they may just give you their blessing, since you’re only being hired as a sound man and not as a rival producer/production company. We are not about denying a brother or sister a chance to work. Heck, that’s why all the referrals happen when people like you and how you do what you do. We ARE however against clients dividing members of a team and driving down rates for everyone, so that nobody can make a living. And this happens more than it should.
Sebastian, you argued that such protocols would be unnecessary if embodied in contractual language. That is actually true.
However, what is in typical contractual language, and what is longstanding industry practice and custom, are two different things, as people are telling you. Not every contract has to specify: “don’t be a back-biting ###k to the guy that hired you for a gig”. In previous generations, this was learned behavior from parents, mentors, etc.
Finally, this kind of behavior tells a client you (not you personally, I mean the guy hawking his card) are not to be trusted, so while presenting them the business card might get ONE gig, as others have said, the damage to your industry rep will lose you much more business than that one inappropriate contact gained. The client will remember that you were easily tempted by opportunity, and they won’t trust anything truly high-profit to people that are ethically ambivalent.
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Mark’s last post says it all and that is how the business has been run. The rule is: You don’t steal your client’s client. Got that kid? There is an ethical framework not to steal the clients of the people who got you on the job. What don’t you understand about that? But you Sebastian, you go right ahead and give out your business cards and steal all the clients you want. Welcome to our industry…
And judging by your comments about a contract for someone you hire for between $250-$500, obviously you have never been to Small Claims Court like I have many times. That contract would not be worth the time of sitting in court all day trying to get it enforced, then trying to collect.
This forum should have some minimum requirements for participating, like real professional experience perhaps?
But thank you Mark for saying politely and in great detail what we all know, except Sebastian and the soundman I referred to in the original post.
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com
www,bizvideo.com -
Wow, I guess you missed the part where I said it sucks but that happens sometimes. I never said I’d do the same. I was playing devils advocate. I find it interesting how you try to belittle people and talk down on younger generations. You don’t seam to read my comments very well, you come to grand assumptions about who I am and talk down on me like you know me. My first thought would be your a bitter person that thinks the youth has nothing to bring to the table and if someone presents another side to the story, you get your panties up in a bunch. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. I don’t tend to sum a person up based on a comment. I thought you where done with this thread? Or shall we continue? Haha.
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Ned, that last crack at Sebastian was unbecoming. It undercuts your moral authority when you do stuff like that while at the same time trying to make a point about being a “stand-up guy”.
Sebastian, don’t mistake asking you about your background and qualifications for a put-down. When you drop the kind of bombshell statement you’ve made regarding a longstanding industry protocol, it stands to reason people want to know who you are and what you know about the topic that qualified making the assertion. Straight-up; are you really practicing what you’re saying, and how’s that working out for you so far, is what people reasonably can be expected to wonder.
At this point, the usual next step is for you to calmly and dispassionately explain your background and experiences -direct experiences – involving this kind of person-to-person marketing on the Producer’s time and dime. You’ve got everybody curious now. Don’t leave us hanging. Make your case.
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I’m a freelance videographer. I have worked with several producers and my personal understanding has been that its a no no to do what the guy did. But my point has been that its unfortunate, but it happens. The best thing to do in Ned’s situation would be to explain to the guy what he did wrong. If the guy does not correct it, than he’s not professional and the solution would be not to work with him in the future. It is the job of the more experienced to show the younger generations how things go. It’s all about colaneration and learning from each other.
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I don’t think there is a problem with him giving his business card in that situation. You don’t own that person and plus, his profession is sound…what is your job description?
Your first comment was why I responded. I didn’t see anything here that accepts it is a no no, or that a contract would have stopped it.
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Oh, apologies. I was playing devils advocate. Sorry for the confusion
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