-
about to transfer film to DV/Digibeta for 1st FCP project- NEED HELP & ADVICE!!
Early next week I’m having the first part of my short film transferred and I’ll be trying to learn FCP with this project. I’ve edited on Vegas for a few years now, but I need the expert color correction help (and other help) of my editor friends and they all use FCP. I bought a Mac mini (w/ extra RAM, etc) to edit a DV version of the film, but want to do an online version (on a friend’s G5) on the digibeta tapes we’ll also be getting from the lab. I know how important it is to do this right from the start, but am confused by the research I’ve done here so far. I was wondering:
1- What do I tell the lab so I can edit from the miniDVCAM tapes and later online the projects from the digibeta tapes so the timecode matches up and everything runs smoothly?
2- I’d like to edit the project on a 24p timeline, so what is the best way to do this in light of the need to online from the digibeta? Remove the pulldown when capturing? From the Pro Tips Article on this subject it seems there is no way to remove this pulldown during capturing, but rather you use Cinema Tools to convert it. If this is the case, then would it be safe to remove the pulldown for use with the miniDVCAM tapes, or would that mess up the digibeta online?
3- There’s been a lot I’ve read here about ALE files, and getting “copies”, “clones”, or “proxies” made to ensure the offline/online process goes smoothly. What should I know about these things?I apologize for the lengthy questions, but this project will probably end up costly over $10k of my own money and I really don’t want to make costly mistakes that push it even further. I bought the DMTS dvds for the entire Production Suite, so I do hope to later be a good contributor here in the future. In the meantime, any advice is greatly, greatly appreciated!!
-
19 Replies
-
What do I tell the lab so I can edit from the miniDVCAM tapes and later online the projects from the digibeta tapes so the timecode matches up and everything runs smoothly?
Telecine to the digi-betas and make dvcam CLONES of the digi-beta to edit with. The timcode on the digi-betas and dvcam tapes should then match perfectly and onlining will go smoothly. Another option would be to use your friends digibeta setup to capture the footage as DV files and use those for the offline edit.
I don’t know much about editing film in fcp. It might important to get a “flex file” or something from the lab. Make SURE you understand the entire workflow you will be using before you start editing. You should to learn cinema tools inside and out. I think it’s essential to keep the CT database in order. It seems like you are intent on learing all this stuff so your already ahead of alot of people.
-
I shoot film all year and transfer to mini dv with a SIMO DUB (this is what you might want to tell your lab) of digi beta. I personaly opt to not use cinema tools seeing that it is not completely nececary. Thats just my take on it, I know that every one is doing it but I’ve produced five films in the last two years that have not had the pulldown. The reason being is because all if the film you shoot is 24fps but it is transfered to 29.97fps. The only problem is that when you are cutting you can from time to time run in to a glitch if you make a cut on what is called a jitter frame. This is when your viewing on a video monitor(which I hope you plan on doing) and when the footage is pause the frame looks possesed.
So just cut away in fcp, make your movie but dont do any color correction or effects yet because you might lose them when you online. Once you finish the cuts make the media offline and export all the files to your buddies computer and batch capture all of your reels back in which therefore will reconnect your media giving you an online version. Believe me there’s always gonna be some boundries and obsticals but this is the basic idea. And by the way cinema tool is an awsome feature and you should definatly use it for safety, like I said I just choose not to. Good luck.
-
Thank you both for the help, I appreciate it. Yes, I definitely want to learn Cinema Tools. I’m not very good at going half way with things, so if I commit to FCP I want to know everything it has has to offer. However, this whole project is short on time (stupid leading actor moving to LA) so I’m having to rush things more than I would want. I’m a big believer in prep work and knowing what you’re doing before you get in the middle of it, but I can’t do that as much as I’d like here.
I believe I know enough now to tell the lab how I want things transferred. Thanks for the help with that. The possessed frame thing does make sense to me, and is another reason I’d like to work on a 24p timeline. So I was wondering if using Cinema Tools to make the DVCAM tapes 24p would mess things up when I try to do the online with the digibeta tapes. Perhaps it would work if I used Cinema Tools on the DVCAM tapes, did my edit, used Cinema Tools on the digibeta tapes. This way would use more hard drive space, but the timecodes should match up, right?
Again, any help is greatly appreciated! -
If you shot on film Cinema Tools is essential to your project. Even if you are onlining to tape, CInema Tools decodes the flex file (which you should ask for) and allows you to turn it into a batch capture list for FCP. It also hold a lot of useful information SHOULD you ever need to reference the film again…and you just might.
The other workflows mentioned are all good. Telecine the film to Digital betacam (digibeta) and either transfer to DVCAM simultaneously (simul dubs) or have the DVCAM dub struck from the Digibeta masters, making sure that the TC matches exactly.
Now…what is your FINAL destination? Online the Digibeta masters? Go straight from your DVCAM capture to DVD? Have the negative cut?
If you are onlining the digiebetas and will be staying on tape, stick to a 29.97 timeline. NO need to go to a 24fps timeline unless you telecined to HD or are going to have the negative cut.
-
I was wondering if using Cinema Tools to make the DVCAM tapes 24p would mess things up when I try to do the online with the digibeta tapes
I don’t know how the offline/online works when using CT to do reverse pulldown. Anyone here done this?
If you are onlining the digiebetas and will be staying on tape, stick to a 29.97 timeline. NO need to go to a 24fps timeline unless you telecined to HD or are going to have the negative cut.
This is true and would make everything much easier but their are advantages to editing @ 24 (or 23.98) even if not going back to film. One is that you don’t have to worry about jitter frames as mentioned. Another big one is that you can encode a DVD @ 23.98 instead of 29.97. Since your are then encoding 24 frames per second instead of 30 you need less compression on the DVD. It will also play back without interlace artifacts on computers and progressive TVs.
-
[guy] “their are advantages to editing @ 24 (or 23.98) even if not going back to film”
True, but only if you are encoding directly to DVD, or have had your footage telecined to HD, which runs at 23.98 fps. Digibeta runs at 29.97 fps, and you can only output to digibeta at 29.97. Performing a reverse pulldown and editing 23.98 will only complicate things. If your footage has been telecined to digi, and you are onlining on digi, stay at 29.97.
[guy] “One is that you don’t have to worry about jitter frames as mentioned”
If your telecine was performed properly there will be no frame jitter. Most broadcast television (THE WEST WING, THE O.C., JAG, 24, LAW AND ORDER) are shot on film and telecined to digibeta, edited offline, then onlined on digibeta…all at 29.97 fps. No jitter.
If you are going directly to DVD from your DVCAM masters, performing a reverse telecine using CT to 23.98 would be fine. But ONLY if you are going to DVD.
[guy] “I don’t know how the offline/online works when using CT to do reverse pulldown. Anyone here done this?”
Yes, but my workflow called for it. A short film was shot on super 16mm, transferred to D5 (HD) then downconverted to DVCAM. I used CT to convert the flex file (ALE – Avid Log Exchange) into a FCP batch capture list. I then captured all the material at 29.97 fps…then used CT to perform the reverse telecine to 23.98 fps. Since my masters ran at 23.98 fps, the fact that my offline footage ran at that speed was fine.
You can also edit the entire show at 29.97 fps, and use CT to convert your 29.97 EDL to a 23.98 EDL.
-
Digibeta runs at 29.97 fps, and you can only output to digibeta at 29.97. Performing a reverse pulldown and editing 23.98 will only complicate things. If your footage has been telecined to digi, and you are onlining on digi, stay at 29.97.
It’s possible to do a reverse telecine from the 29.97 digibeta master during the DVD encoding and restore the original 23.98 progressive frames. If that’s going to happen the footage should be edited at 23.98 or at least onlined at 23.98 to ensure constant 2:3 cadence on the digibeta master.
If your telecine was performed properly there will be no frame jitter. Most broadcast television (THE WEST WING, THE O.C., JAG, 24, LAW AND ORDER) are shot on film and telecined to digibeta, edited offline, then onlined on digibeta…all at 29.97 fps. No jitter.
That makes sense… but i think when they make DVD’s of those show they will be stuck with 29.97 and not be able to take advantadge of the benifits of using 23.98 on DVD. It’s not that big of a deal though I guess.
A short film was shot on super 16mm, transferred to D5 (HD) then downconverted to DVCAM. I used CT to convert the flex file (ALE – Avid Log Exchange) into a FCP batch capture list. I then captured all the material at 29.97 fps…then used CT to perform the reverse telecine to 23.98 fps. Since my masters ran at 23.98 fps, the fact that my offline footage ran at that speed was fine.
Can you do the same thing with 29.97 digibeta masters by reverse telecine to 23.98 during the online? Would that work?
-
[guy] “It’s possible to do a reverse telecine from the 29.97 digibeta master during the DVD encoding and restore the original 23.98 progressive frames. If that’s going to happen the footage should be edited at 23.98 or at least onlined at 23.98 to ensure constant 2:3 cadence on the digibeta master”
Yes, it is possible to do that…IF YOU ARE GOING TO DVD. If you are onlining on digibeta, you have to be editing at 29.97. Digibeta does not play back at 23.98, and therefore cannot accept a 23.98 timeline or EDL. If your final destination is going to be digibeta, you ABSOLUTELY should not edit at 23.98…PERIOD. Stick to the 29.97 timeline. Digibeta cannot be onlined at 23.98…it only runs at 29.97.
Sorry to be so repetetive, but you don’t seem to be getting that digibeta only runs at 29.97, and therefore accepts only a 29.97 timeline or signal. Editing the footage at 23.98 would be counter productive and cause problems.
[guy] “Can you do the same thing with 29.97 digibeta masters by reverse telecine to 23.98 during the online? Would that work?”
No. The only tape format that runs at 23.98 is HD. There is no SD tape format that runs at 23.98.
So…to add emphasis…if you are mastering on tape, DO NOT REVERSE TELECINE TO 23.98. Stick to a 29.97 timeline.
-
Yes, it is possible to do that…IF YOU ARE GOING TO DVD. If you are onlining on digibeta, you have to be editing at 29.97. Digibeta does not play back at 23.98, and therefore cannot accept a 23.98 timeline or EDL. If your final destination is going to be digibeta, you ABSOLUTELY should not edit at 23.98…PERIOD. Stick to the 29.97 timeline. Digibeta cannot be onlined at 23.98…it only runs at 29.97.
Sorry to be so repetetive, but you don’t seem to be getting that digibeta only runs at 29.97, and therefore accepts only a 29.97 timeline or signal. Editing the footage at 23.98 would be counter productive and cause problems.
I understand that digibeta only runs at 29.97 and there is no way to make it record actual 23.98. BUT it is very possible to output a 23.98 timeline onto digibeta as 29.97 with 2:3 pulldown. I know this because I’ve done it. All you need to do is apply the 2:3 pulldown on output. I used a nattress filter but I think some capture cards can do this in realtime.
I would bet that the final destination after the digibeta WILL be dvd. On the other hand maybe he should just edit everthing 29.97 to keep it simple.
-
AH Now I get what you are saying. I get where you are coming from. But I still disagree.
[guy] “very possible to output a 23.98 timeline onto digibeta as 29.97 with 2:3 pulldown. I know this because I’ve done it. All you need to do is apply the 2:3 pulldown on output.”
There is absolutely no reason to edit in a 23.98 timeline. Nothing is gained. It was shot on film and telecined to tape…it already looks like film because it was. Not one show that I have worked on, or know of, that was shot on film, has ever edited on a 24 frame timeline. We have always edited on a 29.97 timeline, and have never had any issues with flicker.
What do you gain by doing things your way?
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up