-
A Nice Plus
-
[Jim Giberti] “I know I’m spoiled. Some of the stations we deal with (typical in local network affiliates) even though they broadcast in HD, still haven’t upgraded their local output, so we send that work 480 letter boxed, and field issues still rear their ugly heads.
“A huge amount of International distribution is still that way as well.
-
[Daniel Frome] ”
If I might ask a further question: If a computer without FCPX watches your h264 outputs, is the color still properly calibrated for them? I ask this because I found that many quicktime movies actually did contain the proper color information — it was quicktime that seemingly didn’t interpret it properly. “Hey Daniel, I’ll give it my best. For one, finally using a native 2.2 gamma gets us all in the same relative space – Mac PC monitor wise. So while our work will always be subject to the vagaries of individual monitor quality and calibration (or lack thereof) it’s just nice to have the issues reduced with native gamma. What’s great about X and what shocked me when I put out our first masters just a few weeks ago, was how accurate the movie was and honestly how much better the image looked on the same Apple 27″ monitor.
Just a quick caveat. Our workflow is to export from X as Pro Res master and then use that to drop on compressor for .h264 480, 720 and 1080 for a typical project.
[Daniel Frome] “For example, we could watch a 1080p quicktime movie in VLC player and get a more accurate view than if we viewed it in Quicktime 7. This indicated to me that the problem wasn’t necessary the exported file, but the “player.”
“No doubt about it, Apple lost it with FCP and Quick Time. And for some unfathomable reason it got worse with QT 10.
I remember when I was in my first recording studio session, I couldn’t understand why the producer/engineer kept listening to these tiny little 4’x4″ cubes when there was a wall of really expensive monitors in the control room.
That was my first lesson in mixing for the “common denominator” or at least that’s what I call it. Those little Auratones, that I then saw in studio after studio as I grew, were the way to make sure that your final output would sound great even on the cheapest speakers in the worst aural environments…and retain the bass. That’s why we all have them…and NS10’s (really sonically deficient speakers, but they are in every studio, so we all have reference).
That’s when I realized how subjective all of what we produced was and how to compensate for it as best as possible.
Sorry to digress but it’s how I immediately perceived monitoring for film and video when I became a producer in this world.
So the whole QT gamma mess threw any reliable “absolute” reference out the window. Worse for me in the last few years was the growing importance (now pretty much exclusive) of delivering compressed broadcast files.
[Daniel Frome] ”
My question is ‘how did they fix it’ I suppose: since it seems like the weak link is equally the quicktime playback engine… which would still inherit these issues on the client machine? Hopefully I’m asking this clearly enoug”I’m not smart enough to speak to the technology, just that ColorSync is something that I’m familiar with as a designer, but that has meant nothing with FCP until X. Now it manages the content within your workflow and keeps it beautifully consistent right through multiple variations of Compressor output.
And again, working with a native 2.2 gamma makes it much likelier to look the way you want on web based content as well.
The combination of the two has made all the work we’ve done in X much easier.
-
[Jim Giberti] “I remember when I was in my first recording studio session, I couldn’t understand why the producer/engineer kept listening to these tiny little 4’x4” cubes when there was a wall of really expensive monitors in the control room.
That was my first lesson in mixing for the “common denominator” or at least that’s what I call it. Those little Auratones, that I then saw in studio after studio as I grew, were the way to make sure that your final output would sound great even on the cheapest speakers in the worst aural environments…and retain the bass. That’s why we all have them…and NS10’s (really sonically deficient speakers, but they are in every studio, so we all have reference).
That’s when I realized how subjective all of what we produced was and how to compensate for it as best as possible.”
What would you do when the mix is right on the reference speakers, but wrong on the cheap ones?
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Walter Soyka] “What would you do when the mix is right on the reference speakers, but wrong on the cheap ones?
“We’d do different mixes for the given media. For instance for a piece of music that’s going direct to radio you know that they’re going to have lock box limiting at the stations, so you don’t master with the same dynamic range that you will for the same piece going to CD.
You want to get the hottest level that reflects your musical intent rather than let the stations squash it and hear it literally pump and breath. I remember when I sold my first piece of original music, the engineer that mixed/mastered it was the same studio owner that had produced my first album demos. I ended up hiring him as my first engineer.
When we’d get close to a mix that we liked on a commercial cut, he’d burn a test cassette, we’d go out to his Volvo and take a drive, with the windows down “you have to assume that they’re listening in the summer and it’s 90 out” kind of thing and listen at different levels and conditions.
Engineers are anal. The best ones.
We’d take notes and then go back to the studio and make tweaks to the mix.I’m a firm believer in the “no one views or hears anything in the ideal, professional environment in which it was produced” kind of nihilist producer. In my personal studio I have a 27″ Apple, 42″ HDMI, JVC CRT and a $400 Sony desk top monitors, NS10’s, JBL Studio 12’s, Auratones, a Sony 5.1 surround system, expensive and cheap headphones…and a Volvo parked behind my chair.
-
[Walter Soyka] “However, the RGB/YUV transformation is mathematically reversible when using floating point RGB calculation as FCPX does. “
As FCPX does.
To simply tweak your luma on any YUV stuff you need to go RGB.
Some time ago people would have said “overkills”.
Apple haven’t fixed the Gamma issue, just skipped.
When changed the native gamma in SL to 2.2, they left FC canvas boosting the gamma to 2.2 The result is FC canvas applying twice the gamma correction. The picture won’t much with a player that can do the same and only QT Pro with “FC Color Compatibility” abled can do it.
Anyway, being aware of all those potholes I haven’t had any gamma problem with FC7.
rafael -
i have done tests importing many files from many different codecs
this feature works, its again one of those things you worry is “consumer” but actually just works, bit like photoshop has done all those years using the same technology.
the monitoring to TV is coming, from what I have seen with DVD output the computer monitor display is far better than it had been (but yes it isnt broadcast monitoring) and is very close.
it will be interesting to see a proper video out in the new year
getting files out is with share and that is basically compressor, so no gamma shifts using export with quicktime compression horridness
it didnt in fcp7 that well
and most definitely isnt something you are going to find on an avid, especially on export. Try AMA if you need to get the video in reliably
-
[Jim Giberti] “Given the gamma nightmare that has been fcp/compressor/QT, this is really nice.”
I’m glad you posted this Jim, I noticed this right off.
I use a broadcast monitor in the field while I’m shooting, and when I bring the stuff in it looks pretty much the same as what I saw out there.
-
“and most definitely isnt something you are going to find on an avid, especially on export. Try AMA if you need to get the video in reliably”
Actually with version 6 software the ProRes workflow is now native, skipping QT. If you import ProRes files into Media Composer and compress to Avid ProRes MXF, then it’s a “Fast Import”. This means the file is copied and rewrapped from MOV to MXF. A subsequent export to ProRes QT using ” same as source” is completely transparent with the original. So a roundtrip using either AMA or import is seamless. The one caveat is when the QT decoder is invoked, such as when frame rates don’t match. In that case, the QT decoder decompresses the ProRes file and presents Avid with incorrect levels and you get a gamma shift.
Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
I find the same problems when receiving Avid media as well, as I don’t have an Avid to bring in/export the material.
That gamma shift is for real.
Adobe has come a long way fixing gamma shifts, but some of that had to do with an AJA QT Component that would cause a boost on renders.
Snow Leopard has helped a little bit, I still find inconsistencies (and like Oliver said, it’s usually codec/container specific)but if Color Sync is truly working with FCPX, that’s great. Now, Apple somehow has to convince the rest of the world to use it. Ha!
-
“I find the same problems when receiving Avid media as well, as I don’t have an Avid to bring in/export the material. “
With MC6, you have native, licensed ProRes support. In the pre-MC6 versions, Avid DNxHD QT exports (same as source, rec601/709) convert reasonably seamlessly into ProRes using Compressor. Just make sure you get your Avid files that way and that you have the free Avid QT codecs installed in your system. There will be a minor level difference, but it’s not the huge gamma shift we are discussing.
The reason is because Apple does not open the encoding specs, so everyone has to reverse engineer passing their levels from a non-QT codec over to QT. The actual encoding is done by the closed QT engine. That’s what you get with a proprietary format without any official standardization.
Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up