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Rendering – Is it a black art?
Hi All
Forum newbie here 🙂
I’ve been using Sony Vegas Platinum 9 and DVD Architect 5 for a while… getting on pretty well with them except when it becomes the time to render. I’ve read through various threads here (and other forums) and probably have a little more to read yet but I’m still confused.
I have an eight minute video recorded on a Sony CX11 (AVCHD) which produced an MTS file approx 900MB. I dropped that into Vegas and performed various edits (mainly titles, text, and music)… looked great when previewing in Vegas.
I followed the recommendation to use MPEG2 and rendered the Vegas output to drop into DVDA. OK… but when I made the DVD with DVDA it said it had to render the video again. Why does DVDA have to render the video again if the video is already MPEG2 and only eight minutes long? The result from DVDA looked terrible! Very blocky and the text blurred.
So I thought I would experiment….
I split the video down to 30 seconds long in Vegas and rendered it three times:
a – 1920 x 1080 Default template uncompressed (.avi) producing a 6GB file
b – 1440 x 1080 HD1080 50i YUV (.avi) producing a 3GB file
c – 720 x 576 PAL Widescreen (.avi) producing a 112MB fileI pulled all three files in DVDA and clicked Make DVD (PAL 16:9 one layer)
DVDA did *not* compress anything! In a few minutes, DVDA produced a DVD with approx 92MB of files. (How does DVDA do that if the original files were over 9GB?) Viewing this on a television showed a good picture for the first two (a and b), with the third (c) clearly not as good… but much better than when I originally rendered as MPEG2.
So, two questions, given I have video in AVCHD format (.MTS 1920 x 1080) and want to produce a PAL widescreen DVD with an excellent picture (obviously!)
1 – what rendering settings and file format should I use when rendering in Vegas for use in DVDA?
2 – what settings should I use in DVDA to maximise output quality?Am I re-opening a can of worms? Apologies if I’m covering old ground or asking too many questions in one post.
Thanks
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9 Replies
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Hi Jay
Thanks for the reply.
.mts means mpeg transport stream. When DVDA opens it up and finds AVC in there, it freaks out, and tries to transcode it.
The .mts file doesn’t get near DVDA. I import the .mts file into Vegas and edit it without any problems. I then want to render the result in Vegas ready for DVDA.
But your computer can’t process it fast enough to maintain the burn rate.
I haven’t experienced any problems with burn rate. My questions are around the best rendering format in Vegas to avoid the issues explained in my first post.
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If DVD Architect wanted to re-render the video then you did not use a template that was DVD compliant. I thought Movie Studio had a simple Make DVD button that takes care of all this for you. Did you use that?
If you want to render it manually, use the MPEG2 DVD Architect PAL Widescreen video stream template to render the video and use the appropriate Dolby Digital AC-3 template to render the audio. Then drop the video and audio file in DVD Architect. If you use the same filename (with just the .mpg and .ac3 extensions being different) then DVD Architect will pull in the audio when you drop the video on the menu.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
Rendering is a learned skill… there may be a little black magic, but it’s not RF electronics design or anything (the “black art” stuff I’ve been doing lately in my day job).
Basically, to get DVDA happy, you have to produce DVDA (and thus, DVD) compliant MPEG-2 video, and match the specifications from project to project. The simplest way to ensure you’re getting correct MPEG-2 is to use a “DVD Architect…” template when rendering your MPEG-2 (I assume Vegas Studio has these… I’m a “Pro” user, so poke me if I suggest things VSP doesn’t do).
When importing to DVDA, you have to match kumquats with kumquats. If you render a 16:9 video, but import to a 4:3 DVD project, DVDA will want to recompress (change to a 16:9 project, and that desire should ebb). Same with NTSC vs. PAL… if you export PAL video using a proper “DVD Architect PAL Widescreen video stream”, make sure you have a PAL project, 16:9, selected in DVDA.
It’s impossible to comment on the quality of your AVI re-render in DVDA, simply because an AVI can contain just about any old video CODEC. If this were an uncompressed/lossless AVI, it really shouldn’t be any different in quality than the other two. You might want to check settings there.
You are very correct, though, in wanting to avoid re-rendering… unless you’re using original sources, HD video, etc. in DVDA for the “fit to disc” trick, you have more control in Vegas, so you want all your rendering to happen there.. the only rendering in DVDA should be the occasional menu or some-such. If the re-rendering was really ugly, my guess is that your original MPEG-2 was something weird.
-Dave
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Hi Guys
Many thanks Jay, John and Dave for your replies. Confusion reigns!!
I’ve taken what has been said and done another experiment.
I rendered my files in Vegas as follows:
– File > Render as…
File name: myfile01.mpg
Save as type: MainConcept MPEG-2
Template: DVD Architect PAL Widescreen video stream
Description: Video: 25 fps, 720×576 Use this setting to create a PAL Widescreen video-only MPEG-2 file compatible with DVD Architect.– File > Render as…
File name: myfile01.ac3
Save as type: Dolby Digital AC-3 Studio
Template: Stereo DVD
Description: Audio: 192 Kbps, 48,000 Hz, Stereo, Automatic Gain Control off.
Use this setting for stereo DVD soundtracks.Each track was named differently with the video/audio being named the same but with different extensions (.mpg and .ac3)
There are seven video files ranging from ten seconds to eight minutes in length. The sizes of these files vary, when rendered, from 2MB to 386MB. The total size of all the files does not exceed 700MB.The above video and audio tracks are imported into DVDA. DVDA’s settings are:
Disc format: 4.70
Video format: MPEG-2
Bit rate (Mps): 8.000
Aspect ratio: 16:9
Resolution 720×576 (PAL)
Frame rate: 25Audio format: AC-3 Stereo
Bit rate (Kbps): 192When I click “Make DVD” and check the above settings, DVDA *still* gives a warning that all seven video tracks will be recompressed, not the audio tracks, just the video tracks. If I’ve rendered the files in Vegas in the required MPEG-2 and AC-3 format, why does DVDA want to recompress the video files? Aaaargh!
What am I missing?
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Is there a reason that you need the video media in separate files? Try making a single MPG/AC3 set. I suspect that this is your problem.
BTW, you don’t “render” MPG and AC3, they are encoded, notwithstanding that Vegas puts both render and compression tools in the “render as” menu.
Steve Mann
MannMade Digital Video
http://www.mmdv.com -
Get back into DVDA, with all of your clips as before.
Go to the “File/Optimize Disc…” dialog. Presumably, you see check marks next to the audio, signs next to the video, as before.
Check the global settings, over on the right in that dialog. It should say something like:
Disc format: DVD
Video: MPEG-2, 16:9, 720×576 (PAL), 25
Audio: AC-3 Stereo, 192kbpsIf not, hit the “Project Properties” button and make the appropriate adjustments. If you make any project changes, check to see if the change to checks.
Next, select your first video clip. Click the “Video 1” tab over on the right, look where is says “Recompress Required”, and expand that. Below it’ll give you “Reasons for required recompression”. For example, if I put a 24p progressive (NTSCfilm) video into just such a PAL project, DVDA will tell me here, “NTSC Media is incompatible with PAL project”.
-Dave
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Rendering is indeed a dark art… so much so that even the Sony Vegas 9 BOOK ignores it…
The big thing is to make sure the preferences in Vegas are the SAME as in DVDA. That is, it defaults to NTSC 4×3, and you need to make sure its set correctly.
Once done, all will be better.
For some strange reason, I have found a better result on screen (and no-one can tell me why) if I render in Vegas to produce a .avi file, and then place THAT in DVDA to burn to disc. Its simple and effective.
I have used the render to DVDA file in the MPEG2 options and found this to give the second best visual results. Actually I was doing things that way for years until “working in the lab, late one night, my eyes beheld a mysterious sight”… and I accidentally dropped an .avi file into DVDA.
“Bu%%er”, I thought. “It will take ages” especially after the accidental render to .avi was pretty fast. The time taken wasnt much different from the MPEG2 render… and then I noticed the crisper vision. So now my workflow has changed. Clicking on the “interleave every frame” ensures fx such as glint and light rays are smooth, and Vegas does not have to recompress any of the existing .avi files on the timeline.
Besides, the less a file is changed, the less damage to the vision quality happens..
2.2c inc tax.
Ben
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Wait a minute. Your file must be an mpg2 to burn to dvd. Y ou can’t burn an avi to dvd, it won’t be a dvd. If you give DVDA an avi it will rerender it to an mpeg2 before it burns it.
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Sorry Guys. Somehow I’ve mis-posted… https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/24/900939
Thanks Jay, Stephen, Dave and Ben for your replies.
Jay: DVD Aspect ratio is 4:3, anamorphic can have a DAR of 16:9.
Sorry, your comment is a little over my head. I’m rendering/encoding/compressing using MPEG-2 16:9 in Vegas; dropping the resulting file into DVDA where the ‘Make DVD’ settings are also 16:9. I just don’t understand why DVDA needs to do anything to an MPEG-2 compliant file.
Stephen: Is there a reason that you need the video media in separate files? Try making a single MPG/AC3 set. I suspect that this is your problem.
I used a single MPEG-2/AC3 file originally and was advised to try separate MPEG-2 and AC3 files.
Stephen: BTW, you don’t “render” MPG and AC3, they are encoded, notwithstanding that Vegas puts both render and compression tools in the “render as” menu.
Thanks.
Ben: I have used the render to DVDA file in the MPEG2 options and found this to give the second best visual results. Actually I was doing things that way for years until “working in the lab, late one night, my eyes beheld a mysterious sight”… and I accidentally dropped an .avi file into DVDA.
“Bu%%er”, I thought. “It will take ages” especially after the accidental render to .avi was pretty fast. The time taken wasnt much different from the MPEG2 render… and then I noticed the crisper vision. So now my workflow has changed. Clicking on the “interleave every frame” ensures fx such as glint and light rays are smooth, and Vegas does not have to recompress any of the existing .avi files on the timeline.
Ditto! But the resulting rendered/encoded file is far too large. I feel I need to get to the bottom of why MPEG-2 is causing me problems.
Dave: Get back into DVDA, with all of your clips as before.
Go to the “File/Optimize Disc…” dialog. Presumably, you see check marks next to the audio, signs next to the video, as before.
Check the global settings, over on the right in that dialog. It should say something like:
Disc format: DVD
Video: MPEG-2, 16:9, 720×576 (PAL), 25
Audio: AC-3 Stereo, 192kbpsThe above checks out.
Dave: Next, select your first video clip. Click the “Video 1” tab over on the right, look where is says “Recompress Required”, and expand that. Below it’ll give you “Reasons for required recompression”. For example, if I put a 24p progressive (NTSCfilm) video into just such a PAL project, DVDA will tell me here, “NTSC Media is incompatible with PAL project”.
Ah ha! The ‘Reasons for required compression’ are…
a) Six videos say – Reduce interlace flicker is on
(I had been advised to use this where the screen has text.)b) The main menu, which has a video background, says Asset contains composited graphics and Reduce interlace flicker is on
c) Then I have three menus that have a png file file as a background. These are used as a kind of information page which the viewer can read. They only have a ‘Main Menu’ link. The ‘Reasons for required compression’ are Media is not compliant with the disc format, Video format doesn’t match project, and Asset contains composited graphics
Thanks Dave! At least I’ve got some reasons now as to why DVDA is re-compressing the files. I just need to understand what the reasons mean and what action to take!!
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