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Sony 8.0 24P Workflow:Render
Hello –
I’m having some problems deciding which direction I need to go to get the effect that I’m looking for. I searched throughout this forum for answers and picked up a lot of great info, but I think I may have gotten myself more confused with every post I read. So apologies if this has been addressed before.
I’m working on a short film that I shot in 16×9 wide screen – Standard definition with my Sony HDR-SR12 camcorder.
I dropped this into my Sony Vegas Pro 8.0 time line. I wanted to render the individual scenes separately and then place rendered files into a new time line for full movie rendering. I want the final out put which will be a DVD burned in DVD Architect 5.0 to mastered in Wide screen 24P (I’m trying to get that film like look rather than the 30fps video).
I’m confused as to how best render each scene (wide screen 24P 2-3 pull down vs 2-3-3-2 pull down) or should this be mpg rendered until taking into DVDA? or do I render each scene as wide screen DV and worry about the 24P and pull down attributes when rendering the final time line (either in mpg or AVI) or when rendering in DVDA.
Whatever I’ve tried to doing the past seems like I am not getting the DVDA template for 24P to be available when attempting to burn the DVD.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks.
Marlen
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10 Replies
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The Sony HDR-SR12 records in MPEG2 format for Standard Definition. I would try not to re-render this too many times as you will loose quality (why didn’t you use HD mode?) Anyway… Make all of your edits using a NTSC DV Widescreen (720×480, 29.970 fps) project and render to 24p as the final step. Use the DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream MPEG2 template and don’t make any changes in it. Then render your audio as Digital Dolby AC3.
BTW, it will take a lot more than rendering to 24p to make your video look like film.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
Thanks John. Should the “final step render” to 24p be “2-3” or “2-3-3-2”.
The reason I did not shoot in HD was that my editing system can not handle HD editing. I’ve got a 3.37GHz processor with 3.25Gig of Ram – which is nice for standard video, but the HD files were choking the machine. I did see that you can shoot in HD and down convert or work/edit with the SD files giving you better quality, but I didn’t want to risk another learning curve with an impending deadline. I was just sticking with what I knew.
As for the “film” look…I’m reading as much as I can on forums such as this to get there too…thanks again for the help.
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> Thanks John. Should the “final step render” to 24p be “2-3” or “2-3-3-2”.
Ah… that’s why I said don’t modify the template… so that you don’t have to know but since you asked (and it looks like you are trying to learn as much as you can) you want to use 2-3 pulldown. 2-3-3-2 pulldown is used when you will edit the footage in 24p. So, if you wanted to render to 24p and then edit that footage as 24p you would do your initial render using 2-3-3-2 pulldown. This makes the footage easier to edit. Then for your final delivery format, you would switch to 2-3 pulldown.
> As for the “film” look…I’m reading as much as I can on forums such as this to get there too…thanks again for the help.
The “film look” has a lot of parts to it. It starts with lighting the set correctly before you shoot. The biggest part of why movies look the way they do is because of the way they are lit and shot, not because of the film stock alone. It also helps to use depth of field to your advantage. People associate depth of field (DOF) with film cameras because it is so hard to get good DOF with a video camera alone. Then there is the gamma of film vs video. It goes on and on… and, of course, there is the 24p cadence which is what you are going for.
I would start with added a Sony Color Curves and make a nice ‘S’ shaped curve to crush the blacks and pop the highlights. Then use the Sony Color Corrector and push the saturation up a bit. Also the Sony Film Grain can help add some grit to the image. All of this is subjective. Experimentation is the key. Find a Hollywood film that you like the look of and pull apart why it looks that way.
You might also want to download a trial of VASST Celluloid. This can get some classic film looks with the push of a button. Then you can look at what FX were applied to get that look and learn from them and tweak them to your liking.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
“I would start with added a Sony Color Curves and make a nice ‘S’ shaped curve to crush the blacks and pop the highlights. Then use the Sony Color Corrector and push the saturation up a bit. Also the Sony Film Grain can help add some grit to the image. All of this is subjective. Experimentation is the key. Find a Hollywood film that you like the look of and pull apart why it looks that way. “
Outstanding! This is helpful. I have used Sony Color Corrector Sony Film Grain in this way and loved the results. And as you suggested – it was done through “experimentation” that I got that result. I’ll try the “S” shaped curve next as that one is new to me.
As for lighting and DOF it’ll be a ways before I get there….but it’s on the list! Thanks again for the tips.
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Quick question to John (or any others with info) – in your post you asked why I did not shoot the original footage in HD. I failed to ask you if it would make any quality difference in my final render to NTSC DV 16:9 Standard Definition.
I still have not upgraded my editing equipment, but will be shooting another short film this weekend – and would like to shoot in HD if:
#1. It would improve the quality over my SD capture that I am using with my Sony HDR-SR12. The output will be a 4.7GB DVD
#2. I can find a way to edit these HD files in an “intermediate” type format that will allow my older system to handle the mts files, but can still produce high quality at render time.
Is there a tutorial or information on working with Intermediate files. I found something in the Sony Manual that gives some direction and I’ve experimented with some files, but have not seemed to pull this off.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide
Marlen
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#1. It would improve the quality over my SD capture that I am using with my Sony HDR-SR12. The output will be a 4.7GB DVD
Yes, it will make a significant quality difference even though you are rendering to NTSC DVD. Even my wife (who is not a videographer) commented on my first DVD made from HD footage on how much better it looked. When you are starting from HD you record more details and those details make for a better scaled down SD picture.
#2. I can find a way to edit these HD files in an “intermediate” type format that will allow my older system to handle the mts files, but can still produce high quality at render time.
I would recommend using Cineform NeoScene if your system can handle the files but if it can’t, you can use VASST GearShift to convert the files to DV Widescreen before you edit. Then you edit in DV and have the option of just rendering to DVD or swapping back the HD footage before rendering to DVD. GearShift was designed as a solution for people who have PC’s that can’t handle editing HD.
Is there a tutorial or information on working with Intermediate files. I found something in the Sony Manual that gives some direction and I’ve experimented with some files, but have not seemed to pull this off.
None that comes to mind. If you use NeoScene it will convert your files for you and then you just use the intermediaries instead of your camera footage. With GearShift there is a “ShiftGears” button that swaps between DV proxies and HD source. The User’s Guide explains how.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
I would recommend using Cineform NeoScene if your system can handle the files but if it can’t, you can use VASST GearShift to convert the files to DV Widescreen before you edit.
Thanks for the response John. I have a Pentium 4 (3.2GH) with 3.25GB RAM running Windows XP Professional Service Pack 3. I went to the NeoScene site and it looks like I may be at the “minimum” requirements to run the software – but sometimes even with the minimum, performance is a problem. They have a “7 Day Trial”, so I’ll give it a shot and if things run a bit sluggish, I’ll switch to VASST GearShift. In either case, this was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for the help.
Marlen
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You’re welcome. Let me know if you have any questions about GearShift if you decide to use it (there is a 15-day free trial so you can try it before you buy it).
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
John –
I went ahead and downloaded the trial version of GearShift. I’m wondering if you could save me a little time, as I have been experimenting with the proxy files, but don’t know what would be the best proxies to use for final mastering.
I shot the footage as 29.970 fps interlaced, 1920x1080x12, AVC (mts streams from the Sony HDR-SR12). I’m editing in Sony Vegas Pro 8.0C and will output the work onto a standard Definition DVD-R.
What are your thoughts s to getting the best quality output?
Again – your help is greatly appreciated…
Marlen
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If you want to render from the AVCHD files, then create DV Widescreen proxies and work with them. Then before you final render, swap the proxies out for the HD files and render to 24p.
Alternately you could set your project to DV Widescreen 24p and convert all of the AVCHD files using the DV Widescreen 24p template and work totally in 24p. Then just render from the proxy files.
I would do a test both ways and see which yields the better 24p cadence that you are looking for. The picture quality should be similar although going from AVCHD on the timeline to 24p MPEG2 will be slightly better.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com
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