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Reprinted at Rick Wise’s request
Reprinted at Rick Wise’s request.
* *Norman,
Would you be so kind as to copy your email to me and post it on
Cow-Vegas? The are two good reasons: you are not the only one with such
a question, and answers will benefit many. Also, my answers are only one
person’s take, and others may have other and possibly more useful views.
These are some of the reasons that the Cow is so useful.Thanks,
Rick
Nazarene Israel wrote:
> Hi Rick.
> I appreciate your posts on Creative Cow, and I am looking for
> professional advice.
> I got steered towards Vegas because I was using PC. The more I get
> involved with it, the more frustrated I get.
> I am hoping to align myself with the ‘winning’ hardware-software
> combination, because it would be nice just to learn ‘the best’
> hardware-software combination, and then not have to re-transition later.
> I was intrigued by your post (of a few days ago) about Mac being the
> most professional platform; yet you also use Sony Vegas. Why?
> Also, do you see Vegas ever ‘growing up’ and becoming a truly
> professional tool, if Sony were ever to decide to get behind it? Or
> are there inherent hardware/software limitations in the Vegas/PC
> package that will always make it inferior?
> Thank you very much for your advice. -
36 Replies
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I’m not sure what the question is in that post. There is nothing special about a Mac that makes it any more a professional tool that any other computer. I also don’t know why the post says that Vegas is not professional. What is the criteria for being professional software?
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
Hi John.
Here is Rick Wise’s original post.
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/24/895675
I apologize. Upon re-reading the post, he did not say that Vegas was not professional: he said that although Vegas was in many ways superior to FCP, it is difficult to use it commercially.
I guess my question is, why is it difficult to use it commercially? If everyone says that Vegas is the wave of the future, then why does it not compare with FCP commercially; and what would it take? Or is it really possible to an open platform to compete with a closed one?
I really love Vegas; but the bugs are driving me, well, buggy. Is that just something one needs to learn to love on the PC platform?
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I guess my question is, why is it difficult to use it commercially? If everyone says that Vegas is the wave of the future, then why does it not compare with FCP commercially; and what would it take? Or is it really possible to an open platform to compete with a closed one?
Ofcourse I don’t know what directors and other professional film makers think. But I can imagine that Vegas is simply to cheap and to easy to learn to be taken seriously by them. I have been working with several other editing programs and Vegas absolutely can stand the competition with e.g. Adobe Premiere. Except that the workflow of Vegas is much more logical and the price much lower. I can imagine that if the price of Vegas would increase dramatically, it would be taken more seriously by the Big Filmmakers. Lets hope that this will never happen…
Theo
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[Norman Willis] “I got steered towards Vegas because I was using PC. The more I get
> involved with it, the more frustrated I get.
> I am hoping to align myself with the ‘winning’ hardware-software
> combination, because it would be nice just to learn ‘the best’
> hardware-software combination, and then not have to re-transition later.
> I was intrigued by your post (of a few days ago) about Mac being the
> most professional platform; yet you also use Sony Vegas. Why?
> Also, do you see Vegas ever ‘growing up’ and becoming a truly
> professional tool, if Sony were ever to decide to get behind it? Or
> are there inherent hardware/software limitations in the Vegas/PC
> package that will always make it inferior?”So let’s answer the questions, one by one:
- the “best” hardware-software combination: There will be endless debate on this topic. Best for whom, for what, etc. Let’s put that one aside for now.
- Vegas “growing up”? It is and has been grown up for a long time. Many of its features are better than the main competition, FCP. As for Sony “getting behind it,” Sony seems indeed to be very much behind Vegas. Unfortunately, it appears that we have one of those marketing in balances such as the market war between VHS and Beta formats. Although Beta (another Sony product) produced superior pictures, VHS won out and Beta died. (Both are mainly dead now, replaced by other formats.) As I posted earlier, if you want to freelance as an editor, you are far better served learning to edit with Final Cut Pro than learning Vegas. 99% of job posts require a FCP editor.
Bottom line: if you aim is to become a freelance editor, switch to the Mac and learn FCP. If you are editing your own work or working in a small house where you can decide the platform and NLE, you will find Vegas far easier to learn and eventually easier to use. Which is not to say it is “easy” to learn right away. You seem to be frustrated right now learning Vegas. I’d suggest you download for free for 30 days a copy of Vegas Movie Studio 9 from the Sony web site and start cutting with this consumer model. The reason: it is full of tutorials and how-to’s and that makes learning the program much easier than the full-up pro version which skimps on these helping hands. Use Movie Studio a lot for free for those 30 days, and then switch to the full-up. Everything you learned will be there, and so much more.
After that, if you are still having trouble, invest in a book and some video tutorials.
If, on the other hand, you decide to go the Mac/FCP route, then your costs are decidedly higher, though your future more open. Again I’d start with the consumer version, but alas there is no free download, no free trial basis.
If you have more questions, respond to these posts or start a new thread. There are no bad questions, other than not doing a little bit of research in the Cow archives for the topic that troubles you.
Rick Wise
director of photography
San Francisco Bay Area
and part-time instructor lighting and camera
grad school, SF Academy of Art University/Film and Video
https://www.RickWiseDP.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rwise
email: Rick@RickWiseDP.com -
>>You seem to be frustrated right now learning Vegas.
>>After that, if you are still having trouble, invest in a book and some video tutorials.
Hmm. Well, I can see right now I have done a pretty poor job of wording things, so please let me try again.
First, I can tell that most of the posters here on this forum are very much audio-video professionals. And beyond that, most everyone here seems to be extremely good natured, and very helpful. If the definition of a professional is someone who makes his living doing something, it would seem that most of the people here qualify. And beyond that, everyone has been wonderfully helpful and good-natured. It has been much better than I expected.
If I had worded things better, I suppose I would have said that my main question concerns not so much learning Vegas, but the hardware and software compatibility issues I seem to be having. From what I have been told, one takes a Mac out of the box, plugs it in, turns it on, and begins using it. That has not been my experience so far using the Vegas/PC platform.
I’m not sure what it was that I said that led you to believe that I am having difficulty learning Vegas. I am kind of slow with tech-type stuff, it is true, but when I got the video editing dumped in my lap, I bought an old Class On Demand 4-disk set by DSE (Vegas 4.0). I was so impressed that I then found out DSE was working at VASST, and then went and bought the 7-disk set there (plus a few more on other subjects). I have not had time to go all the way through them yet, because I have several more irons in the fire. I am really looking forward to learning all of the ins-and-outs of Vegas, but even though I am just now starting to edit, Vegas seems to be very logically laid out, and extremely simple to use. I have hit a few ‘how do I’ questions so far (and probably will hit plenty more as I go), but again, the people here have been very kind to ‘give me a push’ and get me going. So far it has been a much more positive experience than I had thought it would be.
I wish I had been more specific. I guess my issue concerns the open platform, and third party hardware and software support. At first I was looking to go P2, but Vegas does not support P2. Then I was looking at BMD cards; but Vegas does not support BMD, and they offer only limited AJA support. Ironically, both of my brothers work in programming, so I know that programming is very difficult, and I have a lot of respect for the abilities of anyone who programs. I also understand that Vegas is somehow ‘built differently’ than Avid, FCP and Adobe, but do Avid, FCP and Adobe have these kinds of compatibility issues?
I don’t mean to whine, but Boris does not support RED on VP9x64, so now I am looking to work with VP9x32, and see if I can get RED to work with that. Also, last week I could get Cineform NeoScene to work on VPro9x32; but then I tried to install the 64 bit Beta, and now I cannot use NeoScene either on VegasPro9x32 or VegasPro9x64. So far the old QuadCore is cutting it (and my main workflow dilemma is DSL upload speed of the finished product to Vimeo), but does one have these kinds of hardware/software compatibility issues with Apple?
I am not made of money, but at least for myself, I consider time to be far more valuable than money. I got the video editing thing dumped in my lap, but now I am learning to love it; and I am also learning to love Vegas, because it is such a wonderful creative and artistic tool. It seems very logically laid out, and I can see why everyone says it is the wave of the future; but it is just so frustrating not to be able to just load stuff, and use it.
I purchase tools because I need help doing something that I cannot do without them. But although I am not made of money, if I lose a lot of time loading and unloading, and fighting with things, then I would rather have paid a bit more, and gotten something that did not suck down all of my time, because at the end of the day, either I hit my time points and got things done, or else I did not; and that makes a big difference to me.
Maybe I just need to focus real hard on the positive, and see that Vegas is a very simple, powerful and easy-to-use tool that gives me a lot of capabilities for relatively little money, lock on to that, and just get to work.
I apologize if I was whining, and again I very much appreciate the help and the courtesy of all of the professionals (and others) here.
Norman Willis
http://www.nazareneisrael.org
servant@nazareneisrael.org -
[Norman Willis] “I don’t mean to whine, but Boris does not support RED on VP9x64, so now I am looking to work with VP9x32, and see if I can get RED to work with that. Also, last week I could get Cineform NeoScene to work on VPro9x32; but then I tried to install the 64 bit Beta, and now I cannot use NeoScene either on VegasPro9x32 or VegasPro9x64. So far the old QuadCore is cutting it (and my main workflow dilemma is DSL upload speed of the finished product to Vimeo), but does one have these kinds of hardware/software compatibility issues with Apple?”
Well, you are certainly far more advanced than your earlier post indicated. In fact, at this point I suspect you know much more than I do about computer issues. I’m sorry that you are having difficulty with Red footage. Do you have Vegas version 9? That version is, I am told, supposed to work with Red. Boris is another matter. Why do you need Boris?
As for FCP, it too currently has problems with various cutting-edge footage.
You don’t speak to the ultimate need factor I posted: do you want to freelance as an editor, or are you working more or less on your own or with a group where you can set the NLE?
Rick Wise
director of photography
San Francisco Bay Area
and part-time instructor lighting and camera
grad school, SF Academy of Art University/Film and Video
https://www.RickWiseDP.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rwise
email: Rick@RickWiseDP.com -
>>In fact, at this point I suspect you know much more than I do about computer issues.
Lol. Extremely doubtful! (You are making me laugh.)
>>Do you have Vegas version 9?
Yes.
>>That version is, I am told, supposed to work with Red.
I wrote the Boris people on the Boris forum, and they said to contact them via their website. They did, however, indicate that Red should work with Vegas Pro 9 x32 (but not x64).
>>Boris is another matter. Why do you need Boris?
Well, whether or not I ‘need’ it is a really good question. It just so happens that it also got dropped in my lap (along with everything else); so as long as I have it, I should really make the best use of it. I am told it has a very good keyer (which is good, because I do not have the money to purchase CS4/After Effects right now).
>>As for FCP, it too currently has problems with various cutting-edge footage.
If that is true then I just need to quit venting, and be happy that I have as much hardware and software as I have. I guess maybe I have ‘grass is always greener’ syndrome, and just need to sit down and count my blessings? Probably that is the case. I apologize if I vented too much. I just typically expect equipment to work; and if it does not, I get frustrated.
Does FCP have as many problems? Or are there less?
Money is never in surplus, but it always seems that time is the most critical factor. If I can trade a little bit of money to save time, I will almost always go for it (when I can), because it allows me to do more.
>>You don’t speak to the ultimate need factor I posted: do you want to freelance as an editor, or are you working more or less on your own or with a group where you can set the NLE?
I apologize if I did not answer this before. I have no plans to work commercially at this time. I can set the platform and the NLE.
I am a minister with what I believe is an extremely important message that is not presently being heard or understood within the Body of belief. In trying to get this message out there, so far I have focused on writing. However, it occurs to me that no matter how well written a study may or may not be, for every person who is willing and has the time to sit down and read a detailed study, there are perhaps a hundred or more who simply do not have the time or the inclination to read. However, typically they will watch a video, particularly if it is visually and aurally stimulating.
My message has to do with certain changes that have taken place within the Body of belief over the past couple thousands of years. The original purpose of Boris (but it turns out more like Lightwave) is to help illustrate certain points that people have difficulty in visualizing. I believe if I can make my points visually, then more people will be able to relate to them.
Norman Willis
http://www.nazareneisrael.org
servant@nazareneisrael.org -
Norman,
Your frustration is shared by many. The problems you are having are exactly what drives people to buy a Mac. When you have less choices, you have less problems to deal with (but they have their own share of problems). But that doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to have a stable PC. It just means that you might have to limit your choices as well.
My PC is rock solid. The most stable PC I have owned to date and it’s well over a year old. I wasn’t the first to put these parts together and many have built it after I built mine and also claim the same stability. The specs are on the PC Equipment page of my web site and are a bit old by today’s standards but… it works! In fact, I can’t help but notice that a fair amount of people having trouble seems to be the ones with the shiny new i7 PC’s. (This is why i haven’t bought one yet, I’m not convinced that hyperthreading and multi-core are really working stable together)
My approach to a stable PC was very simple. Buy an Intel motherboard with an Intel processor with memory that Intel lists on their web site as being fully tested and approved. (kinda like Apple hardware with a Mac) Top it off with an oversized high quality power supply and only the software you “really” need and you are almost guaranteed a stable system. Yes, it is limiting. You don’t just go out and by the latest fancy ASUS or Gigabyte motherboard or the fastest memory you can find (been there, done that, have the dysfunctional PC’s to prove it).
So it is possible to build a stable PC if you select your parts carefully from a manufacturer that actually tests them in advance and certifies that they work together. You can bet that when I do upgrade to a new i7 system that I will buy an Intel motherboard and the memory part numbers that they recommend.
As for your work in the ministry, I believe you are on the right track. Make it visual… make it compelling… and people will stop, watch, and listen. Don’t give up.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
John,
Thank you for this.
If I understand correctly, what you are saying is that since Microsoft and Intel work closely together, that if one sticks closely to the ‘MS/Intel standard’, then one has pretty much has the Windows equivalent of a ‘closed system’ Mac; but for less cost? If true, that would be a strong redeeming argument in favor of the PC.
Do you think my Crucial DDR-2 Ballistix might be causing the problem? I bought them for the speed, but if they are causing a problem, then I should get something else.
Norman Willis
http://www.nazareneisrael.org
servant@nazareneisrael.org -
> If I understand correctly, what you are saying is that since Microsoft and Intel work closely together, that if one sticks closely to the ‘MS/Intel standard’, then one has pretty much has the Windows equivalent of a ‘closed system’ Mac; but for less cost?
BINGO! That’s exactly what I’m saying. I’ve used top-of-the-line ASUS and Gigabyte motherboards before and there is always something quirky about them. The companies have virtually no customer support and good luck reading the Chi-english manual. I called Intel with a problem and a human actually answered the phone speaking perfect English and gave me instructions on how to fix my problem. In 10 minutes I was back in business.
> Do you think my Crucial DDR-2 Ballistix might be causing the problem? I bought them for the speed, but if they are causing a problem, then I should get something else.
Is this memory listed on the website of your motherboard manufacturer as approved memory that they have tested? If not, get rid of it. If your motherboard manufacturer doesn’t list the memory that they have tested and approved, get rid the motherboard. You are not qualified to test if these parts work well together. Sometimes the specs are correct but for some reason the parts just don’t work together. It is critical to get memory that has been tested with your motherboard and approved by the motherboard manufacturer.
Have you validated that the motherboard is running the memory at the proper speed and timings? If not, go into the BIOS and check. Many times I’ve had to manually adjust what the BIOS thought the timings were to match the actual specs of the memory. If stability is still a problem, back-off the timings a bit and run the memory a little slower. Sometimes “fastest” doesn’t equal “stable”.
Having said that… the other side of the hardware equation is software. It sounds like you may be having software conflicts with Neo Scene not working etc. It’s important to only install the software you need and to not “tweak” things too much. The other day there was a poster who swore the only thing on his machine was Vista and Vegas and Vegas was running out of memory while rendering. It turns out, they did a lot of tweaking to Vista including turning off their swap file. Once they turned it back on, Vegas started working normally again. I don’t tweak anything about my OS. I turn off automatic updates but that’s about it. It’s when you start playing with tweaking that you get into trouble.
BTW, turning off Microsoft automatic updates is *strongly* recommended. If it ain’t broke… don’t fix it. You should only apply Microsoft updates after you have fully backed up your system. This way if they break something you have a backup image to return to. Updating every day as Microsoft would have you do is a recipe for disaster (and I have been there). Production systems should only be updated between projects. Never in the middle of a project and never without a backup image. I use Acronis TrueImage and have it do a monthly full backup and daily incremental backup. this way if my machine starts behaving badly, but it worked last Tuesday, I can restore it to last Tuesday’s state and keep working.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com
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