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Pal and NTSC HD???
OK, debate for the day:
I thought Pal was a term which ONLY referred to SD formats, because it relates to not only frame rate, but ALSO resolution. I know what these resolution are, and I know what the frame rates are, and I know why they were implemented. However, what I don’t know is how much the terminology of the words NTSC and PAL are applicable to HD. I’ve read someone in the past saying that they are nothing to do with HD. In which case, do we have terminology to describe 60i (30p) vs 50i (25p) frame rates used in different countries? Ie, it used to be called Pal and HD, if its not now Pal-HD and NTSC-HD, what is it?
Cheers!😀
Tom Morter-Laing
Freelance Editor
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7 Replies
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[Thomas Morter-Laing] “what I don’t know is how much the terminology of the words NTSC and PAL are applicable to HD.”
VERY applicable. Sure, we now have uniform frame sizes, but frame rate is still a biggie. 25fps vs 29.97fps. And 60fps vs 50fps. And then us NTSC people have 23.98 to deal with too. Frame rates are a much bigger factor than frame size. Scaling is easy, frame differential and dealing with it is BIG.
And it is based on the power supply of the regions. 50hz vs 60hz. That is the underlying reason for both.
[Thomas Morter-Laing] ” I’ve read someone in the past saying that they are nothing to do with HD.”
Whatever you read was WRONG.
[Thomas Morter-Laing] ” In which case, do we have terminology to describe 60i (30p) vs 50i (25p) frame rates used in different countries? Ie, it used to be called Pal and HD, if its not now Pal-HD and NTSC-HD, what is it?”
Still PAL and still NTSC. I have always taken that to mean frame rate.
Shane
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I don’t want to disagree with Shane but I am going to have to.
PAL and NTSC are terms referring to frame rates. But it’s much more than that. Yes, it refers to frame size as well but it is also the specification of the colour encoding system – how the signal (the chroma, luminence, audio, reference pulse etc.) is delivered down a cable.
Called a 1080/25P signal PAL or a 720/59.94i NTSC is lazy. I do it myself sometimes but it is not the correct term to use.
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Wait, so PAL HD is not the same color space as NTSC HD? 1080i50 has different colors than 1080i60? Rec709 isn’t uniform across both?
I hate engineering. This is why I stick to creative cutting.
Shane
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“Wait, so PAL HD is not the same color space as NTSC HD? 1080i50 has different colors than 1080i60? Rec709 isn’t uniform across both?”
This is my point, Im fairly certain (although may well be corrected here) that they are the same in everything but framerate, which is why calling them “Pal” and NTSC” doesnt really apply, because the terms Pal and NTSC never USED to stand JUST for framerate, it involved all the other stuff (resolution, colour etc).
“Pal” and “NTSC” these days seem to be talking about the framrates of the area, which is surely inaccurate, but not argued with (similar to how people here talk about Colour profile and chroma subsampling and get confused with terms, but we leave it because we know what they mean…)
😀
Tom Morter-Laing
Freelance Editor
Certified Apple Product Proffessional, 2010
http://www.depictproductions.co.ukSony Z5, with Rode NTG2.
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[Shane Ross] “Wait, so PAL HD is not the same color space as NTSC HD? 1080i50 has different colors than 1080i60? Rec709 isn’t uniform across both?”
I think that Gary was saying that the terms PAL and NTSC are only applicable to standard definition video, and that they properly encompass the raster size, frame rate, and color system, but that people often use them erroneously as a kind of shorthand for frame rate with HD.
It’s like YUV and Y’CbCr. YUV is almost always used in a technically incorrect way, and it’s been misused so much that now it has practically become a substitute for the much harder-to-type Y’CbCr.
You are correct that all HD is Rec. 709.
I usually see HD formats specified by vertical resolution, interlaced/progressive, and frame rate. For example, 720p25.
Let the flame war commence over whether 1080i29.97 or 1080i59.94 is proper…
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
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PAL=Phase Alternating Line.
It is the Color Sub-Carrier encoding method of 625 line analog TV signals used in most of Europe. The other (similar) method used in Europe (France, Russia) was called SECAM (Sequential Color with Memory).
Both describe the method color information is conveyed on the analog broadcast TV signal. The frame rate for both (50 fields per second) are as Shane correctly noted, are based on the local power-line frequency, 50Hz.
PAL and SECAM would be analogous to our NTSC, except that NTSC (National Television System Committee) is the name of the standards organization, rather than the method. All three formats are methods of adding color information to existing analog B&W interlaced TV signals, and make them forward and reverse compatible. Quite a technical challenge. In all three formats, the frame rate had already been established for B&W broadcasts, so these are color standards/formats, not frame rates. A minor exception to that is NTSC, which is where the odd 29.97 frame rate originated. American B&W TV was true 60 fields/30 frames (same as our power line 60Hz), but when color was introduced, it had to be tweaked to avoid interference with the 3.57Mhz Color Sub-Carrier Burst signal. B&W sets had enough slop in their circuits to deal with the slight reduction in frame rate. This reduced frame rate is also the reason we have drop frame TC.
In the digital world, these terms are all obsolete. Color information is no longer conveyed by phase change of an analog signal. In America analog NTSC is no more. It is replaced by ATSC, which is digital, 16×9, HD (double the scan lines of SD), and conforms to the DVB standard for North America. In Europe, most digital also conforms to the DVB standard. This doesn’t mean everything is entirely cross compatible, since there are many flavors of DVB.
So if it digital, and there is no more Color Sub-Carrier, why do they still call it PAL and not DVB? I don’t know. Maybe tradition. LP records came out in the 40’s. Before LP’s, records had only one song per side so it took several records sold together in a type of book to make an ‘album’. But well into the 90’s people continued to call single LP records and even CD’s ‘albums’.
The term PAL is commonly used now as a type of slang to refer to any 25Hz/fps based video signal.
But technically, if it isn’t analog it isn’t PAL.Scott Sheriff
Director
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If I may… to use this issue in a practical domain;
can we in “PAL land” use royalty free footage clips that are mostly 30fps?Is it OK just to use Compressor or Streamclip to convert it to 25fps?
Mio
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