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reserse assemble
Cow-ites,
Complex feature film question. We telecine film for features and make ALE files with TC/KK info. We want to avoid going to tape and capture direct to FCP HD 23.98. I want to take a 10 minute camera roll file and reverse assemble it so that the ALE when imported to CinemaTools will be able to match in size to the TC and KK info. Since we capture the FCP file manually, the first clip and last clip will be longer in size as the telecine prerolls to the head punch. But I do sync audio then make a subclip of each take.
Can this be done? We can do this in Avid, but want to make it work for FCP editors. Also, since we post sync the audio to the FCP files and make subclips, is there a way to add the Audio TC metadata to the CTDB – from an EDL list perhaps. Maybe from a third party software technique?
Tough questions for film and CT editors.
Thanks for any advice.
Thanks, Film Joe
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10 Replies
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Not familliar with the metadata, but since you can set the captured QT’s TC to whatever you want, it should be very well possible.
(park on the first cut, that should be a known tc. Then, modify timecode, enter the TC and make sure it is set for ‘ current frame’
Of course if the other machine spits out 422 you can use that. If it spits out LTC, you can use that as well.
(in hardware or software, depending what you have)Now this leaves you with a clip identical as it would be captured from tape, i assume you know the rest of the workflow.
Or am i missing the point here?
Bouke
https://www.videotoolshed.com/
smart tools for video pros -
Joe, this sounds interesting but I also feel I may be missing something. If you are recording straight to hard disk (directly from the Telecine?), then where is this TC coming from and what does it relate to?
As for the sound part of things: In my experience, I’ve received already sync’d dailies tapes from the lab with matching ALEs that include AUDIO TC metadata that gets automatically imported into my CTDB. How exactly this gets generated, I’m not sure. But I’m pretty sure the dailies transfer person is not manually entering these numbers. Your best bet would probably be to talk to the tech folks at a transfer facility and see what software/hardware they use to make this possible.
But the advantage of syncing sound DURING the transfer are immense. You can window burn the audio TC directly into the picture (along w/ TC and KK). I personally would not want to edit a project without all three of these window burns. They are your best protection for a smooth conform.
Hope this helps,
Matt Lyon
Editor
Toronto -
I’m with Matt in needing some clarification. Have you transfered any film to date? If so, to what and how? The term “telecined” usually means 24>60i via 3:2 pulldown… is this what your doing or are you transferring to 24p? Is this 24p or 23.976? I assume you’re using CT to generate a cut list for conforming the film?
Not sure what “reverse assemble” means here.
Do you want to output from the telecine (Spirit?) direct to file with synced audio and even minute TC at the punch for each roll? Doing this with FCP will give you 0hr TC for each roll which, as Bouke said, you could set manually in FCP after clip is recorded.
Depending on the answers to the above questions, we may have exactly what you’re looking for.
John Heagy
NFL Films -
Bouke,
I see you did respond here also. The workflow is still unkown. We can make the film punch match 1 hr 0 frame as you say with no problem. Now there is one camera roll clip 10 min long.
How do I use the ALE that marks each take when the telecine rolls, to cut or reverse assemble that 10 min clip into exact lenght subclips. If the subclip duration does not match the ALE durations, CTDB will not create a clean converstion. See my problem?
Also, when we sync sound in FCP, do you know a way to make the Audio Source TC appear in a column in CTDB? Since it is not created during telecine (MOS) the ALE has no audio source to begin with and it must come whem we synce and make new subclips. Does this make more sense?
Thanks, Film Joe
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Matt,
you are correct, but you miss my point. It takes 4:1 time ratio to sync audio in a telecine (very costly). I can make a MOS version in a 2:1 ratio and synce in FCP in non-linear format faster and much cheaper.
Once I sync, the metadata file can be opened as an aux window if needed even if it is not permantly burned in from telecine.
I’m looking for faster cheaper not the old slow way that requires a tape deck and digitizing. I still need a way to reverse assemble a file into subclips using the ALE (MOS) file.
Thanks, Film Joe
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John,
We use the Spirit like you. We do not make a 3:2 as we stay in HD dailies not SD.
The whole question is not about traditional telecine but the need to ‘reserse assemble’ using the ALE to automatically cut apart a long clip to match the TC and duration from the ALE.
Thanks, Film Joe
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Thanks for the clarification Joe, I think I understand now.
I /think/ FCP can do what you are describing, but you’d have to test. It would probably work something like this:
Digitize the 10 min clip and apply timecode.
Import the ALE into Cinema Tools. This would create an event for each take.
Export a batch list from CT into FCP.
This would create a bunch of offline clips in FCP. You can then force relink them to the roll length quicktime. As long as the timecode in the ALE match the TC you stamped upon redigitizing, FCP will figure out which regions of the master quicktime correspond to each clip from the batch list.
You can then sync the audio. Then you can synchronize FCP with the CTDB and it /should/ apply the correct audio reel timecodes to the events in the database. (As long as the audio files have the correct timecode metadata to begin with, of course).
I haven’t personally ever tried this workflow, but this is how I could see it playing out on paper. Definitely you’d need to do some tests! Very curious to know if you succeed!
A problem with working this way is that the clips you are left with in FCP will probably still show huge handles, corresponding to the size of the original roll-length quicktime. You may have to take things a step further and subclip each clip to strip away the extra media.
best,
Matt Lyon
Editor
Toronto -
Ahh… You can use CatDV to link to an imported ale… we do it all the time. Create a CatDV catalog containing all the HD media, with correct reel and TC, then import an ale. CatDV will link the ale “clips” to the HD media based solely on reel and TC. From there you can export a ref or self contained movie that retains reel and TC. CatDV does not do this by default, you will need to set “Automatically link media based on tape name” under Preferences/Advanced Media Handling.
John Heagy
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John,
That’s a good idea. We have looked at CatDV but as I recall, to make this work you do need to fully render a new file as the ref file does not work. So that adds another render step – and doulbe the media space- to the process and possibly negates the time saved.
I may be wrong about this but in demos I’ve asked this and recall that was not as time effecient as film editors can not work from reference movies. Am I wrong?
Thanks, Film Joe
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Hi Joe,
Depends on what you mean by “does not work”. Work where? Ref will certainly work in FCP and in most any Mac QT app. It will not work in most PC apps. What exactly would be ideal for you? Do you just need sub clips in FCP of the appropriate in time and duration? You can do that with CatDV as well. Once the ale is imported into CatDV you can select all the clips from each “Tape” and “Attach Media” and select the correct master tape file. CatDV will link them all unlike FCP. Once all the clips from each Tape are linked in this manner, you can Export/Send to FCP and bring the clips into FCP without actually making new media, ref or otherwise.
FYI… as you know we have Spirt 2Ks here, we also have a custom app that can record direct to file, under daVinci control, exactly as if the Mac were a VTR, insert edits and all.
John Heagy
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