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Questions about 2k and 4k
Hi all, I’m running final cut studio 3 with a blackmagic hd extreme card on a quad core 2.66 with 6g of RAM. GEFORCE GT 120 512MB.
I’m an avid editor making the jump to FCP.
I have some questions regarding 2k and 4k
First off all, can somebody explain to me exactly what these terms mean? I hear them trotted out all the time and, whilst I know they are some kind of high spec movie resolution, I don’t really understand the difference between the two, or for that matter how they differ from the HD picture I watch on my TV at home.
I know that the RED ONE Camera can capture 2k and 4k, are there any other cameras capable of doing so?
Are there any tape based systems that work at these resolutions?
Finally, what can I do and what can I not do with my Setup that I’ve described above?
Can I capture 2k and 4k? Do I need to capture, or are they all disk based systems from which I can import media files?
Can I edit at these resolutions? Can I color grade?
Do I need special video monitors?
In other words, what services can I offer to clients who have shot their productions at these resolutions?
A lot of questions I know but would really appreciate some help.
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7 Replies
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[Francis Robertson] “I know that the RED ONE Camera can capture 2k and 4k, are there any other cameras capable of doing so? “
2k and 4K reference the recording frame size, whether it be 2048 or 4096 pixels across.
yes there are any number of cameras that can shoot at these resolutions since they reference film camera framing of 16mm and 35mm as a simple analogy.
Sony, Arri, Phantom, Silicon Imaging, thomson all make digital cameras that can take images at 2K or larger resolutions, Only Phantom 65 works beyond 4K at this point in time for mainstream production.“Are there any tape based systems that work at these resolutions? “
No. Sony’s 5800 and the Panasonic D5 decks support up to 2K resolution.“Can I capture 2k and 4k? Do I need to capture, or are they all disk based systems from which I can import media files? “
If your an editor these files are captured at the camera and delivered to you as files on a drive – not as any tape format.“Can I edit at these resolutions? Can I color grade? “
Yes and no.
FCP has a max resolution of 2048 for video playback in a timeline for output via as dual link HDSDI. Color does have the ability to output from RED as 4K but there is no way to output these as anything other than files at that resolution.2k workflows remain the norm unless you have dedicated hardware for outputting that type of content.“Do I need special video monitors? “
yes to do real 2K finishing and professional color grading- and they are very expensive.” what services can I offer to clients who have shot their productions at these resolutions? “
It sounds like you may need to work a bit more before offering your clients work at that level. Not everything needs to be editing at the resolution it was shot at- the first question should always be
What is your deliverable? ” if it not going back for Film Out- you really should not ever work at 4K (IMHO) and rarely ever need to work at 2K if it is for HD finish, its a lot of work and hassle just to say that you are working in “x”K- and 5 K cameras will start shipping soon.gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php
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Okay thanks gary that helps a lot.
I’m not really an online editor or colorist (although i’ve done a little of both) I’m primarily an offline or film editor (whichever term you prefer). What I want to be able to do is the equivalent of an offline edit which I would do on avid at a lower resolution to the one finally delivered to the client.
My confusion arrises from the best workflow for this kind of footage
Can I import 2k or 4k files, work with them at a lower resolution, say 720/576 (i’m from the UK) or lower. Then export the equivalent of an EDL to send to a higher spec suite for finishing?
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[Francis Robertson] “Can I import 2k or 4k files, work with them at a lower resolution, say 720/576 (i’m from the UK) or lower. Then export the equivalent of an EDL to send to a higher spec suite for finishing?”
lets start with I currently master all my content at either 720, 1080 or 2K depending on the client and the originating camera, but I deliver to my 99% clients as HDCamSR masters, whether the content starts as HD, 2K or 4K.
Of course you can use offline codecs for editing, you can export an EDL or XML file (even back to an Avid with Automatic Duck tools), however I do not recommend editing HD content in SD with FCP- its just a backwards way to work in FCP.
Working in high quality compressed HD is one of the things that drew me to FCP the simplicity of the workflow always working in HD made a difference.
But what are you doing now? That is by far the best way to start, but you might want or need to rethink what and how you are going to work if you are just starting with FCP.
ProRes HQ @ 1080 25p is about 25MBps or about the same as uncompressed SD content and you are editing a Full “intermediate mastering” quality image.
DVCPROHD @1080 25p is about 1/2 of ProRes HQ’s size and is quite usable as an editing codec.just to start with.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php
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You’ll have to excuse my ignorance gary I’m really very new to working with resolutions higher than Standard Definition and there are several terms which I do not understand.
What is HDCamSR? Is this a tape format?
Automatic Duck tools?
What am I doing now? I’m a freelance Avid editor, have been for about 5 years, doing TV mainly with some corporate and short films as well.
I’ve been toying with the Idea of buying a FCP suite for years, and when an old client told me that he had a charity video that needed editing for a low budget I thought it would be a good excuse to buy the gear and rent it to him for a (massively) reduced rate. My thinking was that it would be a good job to learn FCP on because it wasn’t too much pressure and if I messed up it wasn’t the end of the world.
Then when I’ve learnt the software and feel confident working with the different variety of resolutions I’ll be able rent the equipment (and my services) for a higher rate.
He’s shot it 1080i on XDCAM EX, and it’s been an interesting learning curve figuring out how to import the files into FCP and it got me thinking about what other resolutions I could work with using the setup I have.
Especially as I have a DOP friend who has access to a RED ONE camera so he and I have talked about collaborating on some projects, which is why I was asking about 2k and 4k workflows.
I’m not about to start running before I can walk, I just want to know what is actually possible using the equipment I have invested in.
Here is an imaginary scenario that might take place at some point in the future. Do I have it right?
I am given 4k Footage shot on RED ONE, I import the files and edit them with an offline codec, I layoff a Digibeta master (for viewing purposes, and as a guide for the next stage of the process). I create an EDL or XML file and give it to the client along with the digibeta and the original cards. The Client takes it all along to a top end facilities house where they can import the EDL, grade and finish the film and deliver the final product at whatever resolution the client needs.
Presumably there is no such thing as a conform? The finishing editor can just relink the files using the info from the EDL?
Is my thinking too ‘tape based’?
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[Francis Robertson] “I’m not about to start running before I can walk, I just want to know what is actually possible using the equipment I have invested in. “
“Then when I’ve learnt the software and feel confident working with the different variety of resolutions I’ll be able rent the equipment (and my services) for a higher rate. “
You should have done your research into the workflows before buying ANYTHING.
Your tools are often the largest limiting factor in any workflow, if you don’t know anything about HDor the deliverables how do you plan to sell your services?“The Client takes it all along to a top end facilities house where they can import the EDL, grade and finish the film and deliver the final product at whatever resolution the client needs. “
I am going to say up front that is not the kind of work you are going to get at first unless it is an existing client that you are taking with you from your old job.
Most post houses I know of in the UK and throughout the EU would not give out the edit to someone not affiliated with the “online” finishing facility.
In the FCP world (especially with RED footage) a freelance editor is often asked to do more than just a cuts-only edit for someone else to clean up. Your first low budget clients are going to want an editor that can do more than one single task, so an “editor” position might also include graphics, some audio, possibly even grading and finishing a project, and they usually don’t pay twice (once for offline, once for online).
I gather from your responses you have never finished a project all the way through to client delivery?
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php
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You should have done your research into the workflows before buying ANYTHING.
Your tools are often the largest limiting factor in any workflow, if you don’t know anything about HDor the deliverables how do you plan to sell your services?I am trying to learn about HD and the deliverables, that is why I am asking these rather basic questions. I have always felt that the best way to learn anything in editing is to plunge straight into a real project where you come across real problems that need to be solved. This particular charity video seemed like the perfect learning project for me because I know the client very well, I have explained to him that it will be a bit of a learning curve for me and things might take a little longer than usual, he is happy with that.
I did do my research into the workflow of this particular project before buying the kit, and everything is going smoothly so far.
As for future projects? Who knows, one big reason for wanting kit of my own is that it means I can collaborate with friends and edit our own projects, I choose FCP mainly because of cost and the fact that I wanted to become proficient at using it, something I’ve been putting off for years. The fact that I could then hire it out to current or future clients was something of an afterthought.
I am going to say up front that is not the kind of work you are going to get at first unless it is an existing client that you are taking with you from your old job.
Did I say that I expected to get this kind of work at first? No I said at some point in the future, even then it was a hypothetical scenario. I’m just trying to understand how it would work.
What ‘old job’? As I said, I’ve been freelance for 5 years, before that I was in house at a production company. I fully intend to continue getting most of my income from freelance Avid work for the time being, this is really just an initial foray into the world of FCP.
Most post houses I know of in the UK and throughout the EU would not give out the edit to someone not affiliated with the “online” finishing facility.
No they probably wouldn’t, I don’t intend to get work from post houses, most of my work comes from producers and directors.
I don’t know why you need to put the word online in quotation marks, is this an antiquated term? Not in London.
In the FCP world (especially with RED footage) a freelance editor is often asked to do more than just a cuts-only edit for someone else to clean up. Your first low budget clients are going to want an editor that can do more than one single task, so an “editor” position might also include graphics, some audio, possibly even grading and finishing a project, and they usually don’t pay twice (once for offline, once for online).
This is true in the Avid world as well, as I said I have done a little online work, grading and audio work, I don’t pretend to be proficient at it and as it happens the vast majority of my current clients can afford a finishing editor and audio mixer. I gave you a hypothetical situation, all I asked was if I had got the workflow roughly correct, I didn’t ask for a lecture on what my clients might or might not be able to afford.
I gather from your responses you have never finished a project all the way through to client delivery?
Yes I have, please don’t patronize me.
The majority of my work happens to be offline, my clients hire me for my editorial skills, my speed, and my hard working ethos. I’m a fast learner, I’m creative and dispite the impression you seem to have of me I know my way around post production.
Except when it comes to HD.
Which is why I’m TRYING to learn about it.
I don’t expect to be editing the next James Bond movie on my little set up, I am just trying to establish what it’s limits are.
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[Francis Robertson] ” please don’t patronize me. “
That was not my intent, my apologies that I have offended you.
However some of the questions asked led me to that conclusion, and 5 years is not a long time to be editing offline on Avids, but would be about right as someones apprentice or assistant editor in an Avid house.
“I don’t know why you need to put the word online in quotation marks, is this an antiquated term? Not in London.”
The comment was more about the process in the FCP world is going away and while some post facilities maintain that workflow, more and more often smaller facilities are working from end to end without going offline.
The biggest difference for you would be that most FCP houses don’t offline unless they are working on long form docs -the Industrial and commercial houses that work in FCP start and finish in HD because final cut has had reconnection issues that made your existing style of working nearly un-useable in earlier versions of the app.-
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php
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