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Starting very large project in FCP — advice needed
Hi there,
I’m about to start a very large project in Final Cut Pro 7, and I’d like some advice to make the right choices from the get-go, and not experience large-project headaches later. I’m a prior Avid editor, and have just now switched to Final Cut Pro, and am finding myself a bit nervous about large projects.
The project is approximately 6 or 7 DVD/Blu-Ray discs of approximately 90 minutes each. This will be a P2 workflow with all footage being DVCPRO HD at 100 mbits (1080p). So the entire project is maybe 12 hours TRT, and I’m expecting a 10:1 or 20:1 shooting ratio, resulting in 100-200 hours of source footage. I need to have access to all footage at any point in the project, so I can’t segment this into multiple projects with different footage — any given clip might end up anywhere in the project. However, I will be able to prune source footage heavily once it’s clear which footage is used, so not all recorded footage will need to remain on the media drive.
For this, I’ve purchased the newest Mac Pro 4-core with 6 GB RAM. I have an Areca eSATA controller with the Areca 4-drive self-contained RAID 5, 4 x 1.5TB drives, giving 4.5 GB of media. The drive reads and writes at 200MB/sec sustained.
ISSUES:
Being a prior Avid editor, I’ve never really worried about project size, because bins are separate files, and you therefore only have the active bins opened. Avid therefore edits a 2 minute project with the same ease as a 100 hour project with thousands of media files.
As I understand it, Final Cut Pro will insist on having the entire project be live and loaded into memory, and on a project of this size, I’m worried about the project becoming gradually uneditable.
I would have done this project on Media Composer, which I own with a Mojo SD box, but I couldn’t swallow the $7,500 for HD output, so I talked to a lot of FCP editors I know, they said they never had any problems, so I decided to take the plunge and migrate my editing to FCP. I thus purchased this Mac Pro system, with a Kona LHi card, and the above hardware.
Obviously, it works like a charm when I’m just testing. But I’m keen on getting advice from people who have done large projects in FCP.
Specifically, I’d like if we could talk about the following issues:
1.) I need to have access to all footage at the same time. All footage can in principle end up on any volume, so it’s not possible to partition footage into several project files. Or, let me put it this way, if multiple project files are used, is there a way to have each project “subscribe” to the same footage?
2.) Chapters: The entire project will consist of about 80 or 90 chapters, which will all be a separate timeline/sequence, which are edited into the 7 main timelines. Does this lend itself to a particular workflow?
3.) Number of tracks: I’m very light on tracks, 3 video tracks total, usually, with the majority of the material on V1. But is this an issue?
4.) Effects: I’m very light on effects, except that significant portions will be a a presenter on a green screen, which will be keyed with Ultimatte RT (it will be rendered, though). All GS clips might have to be done in Motion, as on screen graphics would be needed to support the discussion. Does the number of effects affect stability?
5.) Subtitling, i.e. Avid SubCap. Is there any kind of subtitling workflow for FCP where the subtitles can reside on the timeline and be editable, such that if a project is edited, the subtitles move with the edit? Keep in mind that we can’t do Bitmap subtitles, it has to be actual metadata, so that it can be converted into DVD/Blu-Ray subtitles. It does not work for us to do subtitles as a post-process, because the project will need to be re-edited after a while, so the subtitles need to travel with it.
6.) Single Media Drive: I’ve heard some people say that all media should reside on one drive. I might be able to prune unneeded source media and keep it on the single 4.5 TB drive, which I can also capacity-expand down the line, although this results in multiple logical volumes. I was considering simply adding another 4.5 TB RAID when the time comes, but I could also simply rebuild the RAID from scratch with 2.5 TB or 3 TB drives when they become available, giving me a 9 TB RAID 5. It’s no problem to rebuild a RAID from scratch, because I have multiple full backups of the entire media drive — I’m paranoid. Which do you prefer? Pruning the 4.5 TB RAID to keep the project on that drive? Using two 4.5 TB RAIDs? Upgrading the RAID to a 9 TB RAID 5 once the space is needed, so everything stays on one drive?
7.) No Stills: I’ve read that stills really mess things up because they have to be held in RAM, and that it’s best to render everything as video files. Any other thoughts in this regard? What are some things I can do to minimize RAM usage?
Finally, I need to address the hard question, which is whether I’ve made a mistake. If I should have stuck with Avid Media Composer and sucked up the $7,500 for the HD output, please tell me. If the right thing to do is to switch back, then that is something I would have to do.
Thanks,
Per
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10 Replies
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I’ve partly answered my own question regarding subtitles, given that FCP both has XML in/out, and there’s also the TitleExchange Pro. The XML way would surely require some script programming. What do people think of TitleExchange Pro? Anyway, I don’t mean to hijack my own conversation, I’m far more interested in the large-project stability issues.
Best,
Per
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[Per Holmes] ”
1.) I need to have access to all footage at the same time. All footage can in principle end up on any volume, so it’s not possible to partition footage into several project files. Or, let me put it this way, if multiple project files are used, is there a way to have each project “subscribe” to the same footage? “You are thinking in Avid terms…. you can have multiple projects open at the same time in FCP.
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Hi,
OK, that’s very interesting. So what you’re saying is that I could actually partition my source footage into various project files, i.e. Location 1 goes into Project File #1, Location 2 goes into Project File #2, Green Screen presentation goes into a GS project file? Then it sounds like I could also make each chapter, or group of chapters, into their own project file, and finally have my output-timelines be a separate project file for each disc?
In other words, is it a reasonable analogy to think of a FCP project file as an Avid bin?
Thanks very much,
Per
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[Per Holmes] “In other words, is it a reasonable analogy to think of a FCP project file as an Avid bin?
“Exactly. I think I have heard other people on this forum make that same analogy.
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Hi,
If that’s the case, it seems that FCP is no more limited than Avid in handling projects of any size, because it lets you open only the databases you need.
Funnny, how FCP then has gotten the blame for being unstable, when all you’re doing is poor media management. Having too many bins open crashes an Avid any day, trust me, I’ve had this happen often.
If FCP allows you to only open the “bins” / “projects” you’re working with, and you use this to segment the data-load on your project, then Avid should have no edge over FCP in handling projects of any size.
I’m extremely encouraged by this, and I just tested — yes, it allows you to open multiple projects and drag and drop between them. In that case, you can do the same healthy segmentation that you’re forced to do on Avid.
Thank you, sir!
Per
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Per,
First, that’s not a particularly “large” project. Many here routinely deal with 100 to 200 hours of video for documentaries, and some working in reality TV way more. However, your present thinking about your hard drive situation needs a big dose of reality.
You are cutting it way too close, seemingly not taking into account renders etc., and not taking into account the need for 20% free drive space either. “Pruning” as you go, in order to create hard drive space, in the middle of a documentary job such as the one you’re described is also not very realistic, and it’s a job unto itself that is best avoided.
Adding additional raid enclosures of the same brand as you progress is workable, and having your media on two separate raids is not problematic as you seem to believe, but the fact is, getting a 4-drive raid was probably not your best decision. An 8-drive raid would have given you twice the throughput and twice the space, both of which, I hate to say, are going to haunt you.
With regard to stills, I would advise importing them as stills, then animate, then export as quicktimes then reimport, cut them in on a track over your original, then turn off “enable” on the original. That allows you to go back to the original hi-res still if necessary, but turns off its RAM eating requirement.
Given that this is your first FCP project you are probably going to be in for a handful without an assistant who really knows FCP.
And finally, I would strongly advise that you acquire Shane Ross’s DVD on organizing projects in FCP, available from the Creative Cow. It will help you a great deal.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.
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This is all the advice you will need.
https://store.creativecow.net/p/63/getting_organized_in_final_cut_pro
do not start your project until you have received and reviewed everything Shane has to say about organizing a project, especially the chapters on large project organization. We’re doing three documentaries with over 300 hours of raw material and are following strategies laid out by Shane on this disc.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
Credits include multiple Emmy, Telly, Aurora and Peabody Awards.
Owner, Biscardi Creative Media featuring HD Post
Biscardi Creative MediaCreative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital. -
Hi there,
Thanks for your suggestions, I will get that training. As for the hard drive situation, it’s just that I’m sticking with Areca, because they have never, ever let me down. I’ve been through a number of RAIDs that did something funky, but I edited my last project on Avid with an Areca RAID, and it’s very fast — 200 MB/sec sustained read/write is pretty good from 4 drives. Unfortunately, at present, they only offer an external 4-drive enclosure. Had this been PC, it would have been no problem to make an internal 12-drive Areca RAID 5, but on a Mac, I can’t do it internally. However, I’m very keen on sticking with Areca, because I’ve seen them perform exceptionally well in an emergency, and I’ve just lost data with other RAID 5s — in emergencies. For example, I’ve seen a compromised RAID 5 fail completely because one more drive was accidentally disconnected, even though nothing was written because it wasn’t connected. In the same situation, Areca doesn’t dissociate the drives unless it absolutely has to. That’s why I want to keep using them.
I’m also averse to drives that are too big, RAID 5 or not, because I’ve experienced file-system crashes as well. The antidote to that is to make multiple partitions, but then you’re not really better off than having multiple drives. I additionally make full project mirrors on two sets of regular drives, so that one entire project, with all files needed to reconstitute it, is rotated off-site. So while I understand where you’re coming from, I’m pretty attached to the multiple SAS RAIDs. I’m only mentioning the so-called multi-drive problems because I read threads that hammered on it — like you, I can’t understand why, it shouldn’t matter where the data is coming from, as long as it’s reliable.
I’m extremely encouraged that you don’t consider a few hundred hours a “large” project, because neither do I. But again, I’m just going by what I’ve been reading. If all this is in a single project file, then for sure, it would bring down FCP, but it would bring down Avid too to have all that in a single bin. It’s truly a relief to hear you say that.
In this case, pruning will still be a key part of the workflow, because for a good portion of the footage, there are 15 takes and we’re using the last one. These are firm decisions that can be made, and can significantly decrease the space needed. Still, I can easily see going over 4.5 TB.
And yes, I will be editing a full test project before doing FCP for real. I don’t expect learning to end — I learned my favorite Avid keyboard shortcut days before being done with a year-long project. At this stage, I’m primarily trying to make project-management decisions that won’t become a huge problem later. The suggestion earlier of treating FCP Projects as I would treat Avid bins, I think is huge.
Thanks,
Per
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Yes, it was just suggested. Ordering right now. Thanks a lot!
Per
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Per,
Hire a seasoned FCP assist to hold your hand for a few days. Even if you have to pay for it out of your own pocket, what ever it costs will come back tenfold.
It sounds like you’ve got a lot of “unlearning” to do from your Avid ways. You can’t possibly absorb all you need to know to make a successful AVID to FCP switch from this forum or other info. There’s no substitute for
having a live person there to immediately answer your questions.Good luck.
Mark
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