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UPDATE: Editing HDV For Burning To SD DVD.
Last June I asked how I could get acceptable SD DVD results from HDV as when I burned a project using iDVD 08 the quality was appalling ……… juddering and jerky movement on both slow pans and people etc. moving in the frame, together with shimmering and aliasing on straight lines.
A great many suggestions were made, including some incredibly complex and time-wasting ones, but none worked perfectly. (ProRes was useless).
The best and quickest solution I found, after numerous tests, was to simply Export>Using Compressor and burn in DVDSP or Toast.
This got rid of all the problems except for a slight aliasing on sharp diagonal lines, which does not really bother me.
The original problem proved to be caused by an incompatibility of any type of QuickTime Movie (or QuickTime Conversion) when using HDV to make SD DVDs.
If QT was used the results were as described above.
Recently I have done a batch of tests in which the HDV footage has been down-converted to DV in the camera during playback and captured in FCP 6.
When Exported>As QT Movie and burned in iDVD or DVDSP the resulting DVDs are excellent.
However, strangely, if the down-converted footage is Exported>Using Compressor, the results are terrible once again.
So the conclusions are:
1. If editing HDV or ProRes, it is fatal to use QuickTime anywhere in the process.
2. If editing down-converted DV it is essential to use QuickTime.
The fact that people on these (and the Apple) forums claim to have not experienced my problems has led me to speculate that it might be a TV standards induced effect. I use PAL but most users of the forums are on NTSC which may work OK ……… I have no way of testing out this hypothesis.
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9 Replies
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[Ian Brown] “1. If editing HDV or ProRes, it is fatal to use QuickTime anywhere in the process. “
This is a completely inaccurate statement. ProRes IS Quicktime. Creating SD DVDs from ProRes files is a non-issue. We’ve done plenty of them from ProRes finished Sequences.
It might be an issue creating an SD DVD from an HDV originated file, but we NEVER edit in native HDV as there are just too many problems with that format for us anyway.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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Hi Walter, thanks for responding.
I probably didn’t express myself clearly.
I meant that when HDV was converted to ProRes (either during or after capture or rendered as ProRes) and the edited video was exported via QT Movie for ultimate burning to SD DVD, the resulting DVD had unacceptable degrees of judder and jitter.
There were 2 main reasons for my post. The first was to be of help to anyone who may be experiencing the problems I have encountered and the second was to find out if anyone had discovered a 100% perfect solution.
Unfortunately the only ideal way to view HDV is probably via Blu-ray and converting to SD DVD seems doomed to introduce artifacts to a greater or lesser degree.
My problem is that whilst I could produce Blu-ray discs, most people in the UK would have no way of playing them as high definition is not taking off yet over here.
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[Ian Brown] “I meant that when HDV was converted to ProRes (either during or after capture or rendered as ProRes) and the edited video was exported via QT Movie for ultimate burning to SD DVD, the resulting DVD had unacceptable degrees of judder and jitter. “
That’s completely false too. We capture HDV to both DVCPro HD and ProRes and the resulting SD DVD’s are fine. We use an AJA Kona 3 to make the conversion during ingest and creating an SD DVD straight off the DVCPro HD or ProRes timeline is a non-issue. No “judder or jitter” to speak of.
[Ian Brown] “Unfortunately the only ideal way to view HDV is probably via Blu-ray and converting to SD DVD seems doomed to introduce artifacts to a greater or lesser degree. “
We’ve been using HDV originated material for almost 3 years now. This has never been an issue going to SD DVD. The ONLY issue we’ve had is one client who insisted on sending us an HDV originated quicktime file. And in that case, the only issue was a general softness of the final SD DVD.
Not sure what you’re doing wrong in your workflow, but the basic message in your post here is completely wrong in my experience.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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I am sure you get excellent results because when using ProRes are you using Export>QuickTime Movie?
I doubt it, because you will have no need. You are probably Exporting via Compressor or in some other way.
In my first post I stated that I too could get good DVDs if I used Compressor, the only slight problem being a small amount of aliasing on straight diagonal edges.
I have not found any way of completely eliminating this other than in my recent tests by down-converting the HDV to DV in the camera as I capture and then using Export>QT Movie. However, for various reasons I don’t want to use this workflow.
Don’t forget the final comment I made originally, that it could possibly be a PAL issue, in which case you will naturally have no experience of the problem. This is not inconceivable as there have been several instances in FCP where PAL footage has not behaved correctly.
One such instance is when importing a still, you always (in PAL) get a shorter time than what is set in User Preferences eg. a 12 second default time results in a 10 second still. Of course, as you shoot NTSC you probably won’t have come across this problem either.
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[Ian Brown] “I am sure you get excellent results because when using ProRes are you using Export>QuickTime Movie?
I doubt it, because you will have no need. You are probably Exporting via Compressor or in some other way. “
My Workflow:
From the Timeline: Export > Quicktime Movie > Current Settings. I make a Reference Movie.
This is EXACTLY THE SAME as Send to Compressor.
The ONLY DIFFERENCE is that Final Cut Pro stays running in the background when Compressor launches.
So your assumption is completely wrong.
[Ian Brown] “In my first post I stated that I too could get good DVDs if I used Compressor, the only slight problem being a small amount of aliasing on straight diagonal edges.
“You’re taking 25:1 MPEG-2 HDV compression and then adding another round of MPEG-2 Compression AND dropping the quality to SD and you’re surprised you’re getting a little aliasing? Yep, that will happen along with an overall softening of the image if you try to create the DVD from the HDV timeline.
[Ian Brown] “Don’t forget the final comment I made originally, that it could possibly be a PAL issue, in which case you will naturally have no experience of the problem. This is not inconceivable as there have been several instances in FCP where PAL footage has not behaved correctly.
“No, naturally I wouldn’t because I’ve only done three documentaries in 1080i/50 PAL that were delivered in HD and in SD both on tape and via DVD. Oh and last week I had to deliver PAL DVDs for a project that was shipped overseas which was shot on HDV using the Sony Z1, captured to DVCPro HD and rendered out via ProRes from Color.
The only format I’ve never had the need to deliver is SECAM.
If you really want to go all out in DVD quality, then you switch over to Telestream Episode Pro or Innobits BitVice. But you still work in the Quicktime format to get there. You never want to take raw HDV and go anywhere with that. You get out of that codec as quickly as possible, generally during ingest.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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Thanks for your comment that a small amount of aliasing is to be expected as it seems to confirm my findings, so I will stop searching for a miracle cure.
Now to the important point – the instability.
The workflow you outlined is identical to mine ……. Native HDV edited in the timeline, Export>QuickTime Movie using current settings and making a reference movie.
There are then at least 3 possible workflows from that point:-
1. If that reference movie is encoded and burned in either DVDSP or iDVD (using any combination of settings) the resulting DVD displays bad judder/jitter/shimmer wherever there is movement (either subject or camera).
2. If that QT Reference Movie is encoded in Compressor before being burned in DVDSP the results are OK.
3. Alternatively, the method I normally use is to omit the Export>QT Movie stage and instead Export>Using Compressor. This is a simpler workflow and gives the best results. I have a feeling that they may be a tad better than Workflow 2 but it is too close to be definitive.
So as long as a QT Movie (created from an HDV timeline) is encoded in Compressor, the results are OK, BUT try encoding that QT Movie in DVDSP or iDVD and bad instability is created.
Conversely, the OPPOSITE findings occur if I edit HDV that has been down-converted to DV in the camera during Capture.
In this scenario, when exported as a QT Movie and encoded and burned in either DVDSP or iDVD the results are almost perfect …… even the slight aliasing has gone.
However, encode it in Compressor and all the instability is back.
I cannot explain these apparently contradictory findings as I don’t understand in detail the inner workings of the various apps.
Last year I appeared to be the only one experiencing these things (always a bad sign!) but since then other people have reported similar findings.
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[Ian Brown] “The workflow you outlined is identical to mine ……. Native HDV edited in the timeline, Export>QuickTime Movie using current settings and making a reference movie. “
Nope. My workflow is HDV captured to DVCPro HD or ProRes. Edited in that native format of DVCPro HD or ProRes. We never work in native HDV.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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Hi. Just to joined you guys…. I am having the same problems with getting to DVD as Ian. I am in Pal land as well. Have tried straight to Compressor and get terrible results….. which settings do you use? Have tried making QT file and using Toast and again terrible quality. So at the moment I don’t know what to do. I’m fairly new to FCP obviously and maybe I’m missing settings or something. I have use Avid for many years and never had any problems like this…. make QT ref file and straight to DVD in high quality.
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Hi Brian.
I no longer have a (serious) problem using either of the 2 methods outlined above. I notice you say you are having bad results from Compressor. I don’t, the only problem occurs when I use QT Movie and burn in iDVD, DVDSP or Toast WHEN EDITING IN NATIVE HDV OR PRORES OR AIC.
1. If you ARE editing in native HDV or ProRes use File>Export>Using Compressor and burn in DVDSP or Toast.
2. If you are down-converting from HDV to DV in the camera during playback and therefore editing DV, use File>Export>QuickTime Movie and encode and burn in iDVD, DVDSP or Toast. (If using this method do NOT use Compressor or all the judder will return.
Method 2 actually gives marginally better results as it reduces the vestigial traces of aliasing found in method 1.
However, I prefer to use Method 1 because the higher quality HDV/ProRes in the timeline is very useful if I want to enlarge the video or use a frame as a photo.
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