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30p over 60i – workflow questions
Ok… I’m still pretty new to FCP, did some searching and don’t quite have the answer I need yet.
I’d like to shoot standard-def progressive looking footage, but I’d prefer to shoot 30fps and avoid 24fps for now – less judder and therefore more margin for error as I adjust to the change from shooting interlaced for the last 20 years. I’m also hoping to avoid pulldown/pullup steps.
My camera records SD formats over a 60i signal , so when I shoot SD 30p (in DVCPro50) it uses the same image for both upper and lower fields of each frame. Looks good, except for the inevitable combing when you transition from each ‘progressive’ frame to the next. I like the progressive look, but the combing artifacts 30 times a second is damping my enthusiasm.
From what I’ve read it sounds like I can adjust settings in FCP to have it recognize and display this footage in true progressive – but what exactly do I need to change? I don’t believe it’s as simple as setting Field Dominance to None.
And my ultimate concern is output, which will likely be to BetaSP. I’m still not sure how to resolve the progressive vs interlaced issue without winding up with inter-frame combing on my final output tape.
Any wisdom you guys wanna throw at me to make this work? Alternate shooting formats that would serve me better for progressive look and output to analog NTSC? I have about ten days before a big shoot and I’m trying to get everything dialed in and tested. Shooting in HD is an option as well if it solves some issues, I’m using a Panasonic HPX-500 and I can downconvert via Kona LHe.
Thanks much,
-Adam
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Video Photographer / Avid Editor / Final Cut Neophyte -
7 Replies
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Rediscovered the old 30p thread and read through it again, and as well I’m looking at the 30p workflow suggested by Tom Brooks in this thread https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/955876 – and while I may have a few more answers I’m still trying to work out some specifics…
I shot a ton of 30p DVCPro50 and then transferred via component from my camera direct to betacam, and that footage clearly had interlace issues. I can understand that pulling the footage into FCP and setting the sequence to no preferred interlace will correct for this, but I’m still not sure how I’ll output to NTSC video without the same combing issues.
-Adam
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Video Photographer / Avid Editor / Final Cut Neophyte -
I agree with you. The only problem with 30P is when it is displayed on interlaced systems. 30P looks great in a Quicktime movie on a computer. I believe it can look good on a DVD if the DVD player can recognize it as progressive and display it as such on its component output.
But 30P on BetaSP? I don’t see how that works–for the reason you state. It’s that point where a field from frame 1 and a field from frame 2 are displayed interlaced. Those fields are from different points in time and will make the comb artifact. (If “Friends” is shot 30P, I don’t know what they do to make it look good on my NTSC TV.)
For BetaSP final output, I’d be shooting 60i. I do hope you get some good answers on this topic.
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[Tom Brooks] “But 30P on BetaSP? I don’t see how that works–for the reason you state. It’s that point where a field from frame 1 and a field from frame 2 are displayed interlaced. Those fields are from different points in time and will make the comb artifact.”
Yeah.. I don’t see any way around that, and while I’m not sure if it’s a deal-breaker for me it’s certainly going to limit my using 30p for broadcast material, and I was really hoping my days of dealing with interlaced footage were almost over!
Unfortunately we sorta have to shoot for lowest common denominator for delivery as we have no idea where the spots will be aired and what equipment those stations will have.
I’m still hoping somebody will come up with an amazing solution although I dunno what that’d be… until then I guess I’m doing some more footage tests.
-Adam
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Video Photographer / Avid Editor / Final Cut Neophyte -
[Dave LaRonde] “When you’re watching the playback in real time, are you REALLY going to crab about the combing when the first field of the next frame appears? Heck, if you are, then why don’t you ALREADY crab about the combing on normal interlaced scan, where it can take place 60 times a second rather than 30 times a second? Why haven’t you crabbed for decades about the combing that you see in a movie on TV, which has contained 3:2 pulldown to get it to 30 frames a second since the first day they started showing movies on TV? Think about it.”
The ultimate answer is that I crab because I’m evaluating a new camera and a new shooting format and attempting to work out the pros, cons and workflow issues I may encounter along the way.
Because of the nature of NTSC I couldn’t imagine any way around this combing but I posted here to try and learn more. At this point I suppose it’s going to be a judgement call per-project as to whether I shoot 30p or not.
And yes I crab about the combing in realtime on an NTSC monitor because what I have is very visible on most horizontal motion. It’s not as bad as having fields reversed, but it’s not good. Having beautiful footage except for the jaggie-edged nurse walking by is distracting. I’d also be happy to learn if I’ve done something wrong, possibly while transferring footage… guess I better go check the field dominance of DVCPRO50 vs BetaSP.
BTW, why would anyone crab about combing on standard NTSC video playback? If you’re sampling motion 60 times per second then there’s not going to be any visible combing, as the motion is updated every field and at best you have what appears to be a soft edge. Movies with pulldown are of course the exception, but then I don’t have to answer to clients about those.
-Adam
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Video Photographer / Avid Editor / Final Cut Neophyte -
I’m using the HDV 1080 60i easy setup option in Final Cut Pro 6 and trying to capture from my Canon XH A1. The problem is that I get frequent time code breaks even though there are none on the tape. I have the break up clips on rec start/stop option toggled off.
Is there a specific capture setting I need to use for my camera, I can’t seem to find any info on this anywhere yet.
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I don’t use HDV, but that rings familiar. Maybe HDV forces break on start/stop? Should be some info in the HDV forum.
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Check the HDV forum – I’ve only captured from HDV once but I did have some spots where it seemed to arbitrarily stop/start capturing in the middle of shots.
You can also duplicate the deck control template and set the preroll low (I used 1 second) to insure you’ve got footage as soon as possible after a break or camera stop, but there’s lots more footage on the HDV forum.
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Video Photographer / Avid Editor / Final Cut Neophyte
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