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720p60 Conform Fiasco
Where to begin…
The Job:
15 camera shoot shot with HDX900 (with the exception of lipstick Cams) Documaentary footage captured to tape/P2 at 720p 59.94. Rest of event captured straight to AJ-HD1200a in Production Trucks at 720p 59.94.
Do to the massive amount of footage (500+ tapes) we elected standard offline/online workflow: downconvert from AJ-hd1200a/1400a to dv 29.97, edit at dv 29.97 then Conform at 720p 59.94. Over 6TB of footage at DV Rez.
30+ Mixed Mac PPC/Intel edit bays, FCP 5.1.4, XSAN 1.4.1, Mixed AJA Kona 3/2, Decklink HD Extreme.
Workflow:
Assistants capture the footage into 1 Massive Capture Project. Branch them off into Seperate projects to create Multiclip Sequences for Editors. Editors then use the Project with only the Sequences to edit from and create Cut downs. 3 editors to One episode. 1 Final Editor combines the Sequences into ONE SEQUENCE TO RULE THEM ALL!!! *cough* sorry…
Changes, changes, changes, more changes…..
Final DV 29.97 Sequence is then broken down and stripped naked–remove all attributes: distorts, time ramps, etc. All graphics deleted. All multiclips are collapsed. Media Managed: Create OFFLINE to DVCPro 720p60. Include Master clips outside selection. Delete unused Media with 00:00:02:00 Handles. Include Affiliate clips outside selection. Do NOT include inactive multiclip angles.
Sort Resulting Master Clips by reel and Batch Capture via Firewire. Seems easy and straight foward…
Enter Media Mangler.
I have had every problem under the sun with these Media Managed sequences. Some clips line up while others are off anywhere from 5 frames to being just completely wrong. I had one clip actually capture BACKWARDS. Many of the resulting clips in my sequence have a (Variable) Time Ramp still attatched to them even though i removed the attribute before I Media Managed. I have tried just Media Managing to another DV Sequence and capturing at 720p60 with the same results. It seems that Final Cut is not translating properly. I understand that the Timecode on the tape is actually recorded at 30fps and 60fps is created by doubling the timecode address of every frame and adding an * to ever second frame (00 and 00*) resulting in 59.94 TC (seen when 60@30 is selected in timeline). But again it seems as though something screwy is happening here. The bottom line is that I have had to resort to actually Exporting an EDL at DV 29.97 then reimporting it at DV 29.97 and recapturing the clips at 720p60. The Humanity! Actually, cant beat tried and true workflow mechanics but fact still remains that Im doing exactly what Im asking FCP to do in the media manager, but by hand. So far seems groovy and clips are lining up.
To add to the face melting antics of FCP I had a Behind the Scenes piece using the same workflow (DV 29.97 to 720p60 Conform through Media Manager), same media, and same hardware and the Conform process went off without a hitch–minus a few timcode breaks.
Only Varibles being 1 person/1 project vs. 10 ppl/many projects. I know this process has worked and others have had great success. But I also know that I am not alone in having problems with FCP DVCPRO HD offline/online workflow. Feel free to take a stab at it and would love to hear solutions/similar experiences. If I have not contibuted enough detail Ill be happy to add more. It was actually a very long process with many tests and much buggy behavior. Thanx in advance.
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14 Replies
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[rpfloyd] “Enter Media Mangler.”
Loved it! Can’t stop laughing…
🙂Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
President
Santa Monica, CA 90025
https://www.timecodemultimedia.com -
[rpfloyd] “Final DV 29.97 Sequence is then broken down and stripped naked–remove all attributes: distorts, time ramps, etc. All graphics deleted.”
Just curious, why do that? YOu are probably confusing FCP even more. I just did a project with a bunch of time remaps in almost the same workflow as yours and everything came through splendidly, although it was just me on the edit, not many many others like you have.
Have you tried Media Managing the project with the original timelines, everything in tact with it’s ‘clothes on’?
Jeremy
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Initially did it because there have been some documented errors in Media Managers ability to handle Time remapping. In deleting all the effects it was thought we were actually making it easier for FCP to Manage. However we did try every conceiveable combination: with and without fx (including Time Remaps), Create offline to DV 29.97 then capture as 720p60, Larger handles in thinking that the smaller ones might be hitting time code breaks without capturing the right clip, finally Capturing the ENTIRE Master clip and still not lining up properly in the timeline. Want to do more testing but on a serious time schedule (aren’t they all). In the end the EDL worked out. Very bare bones.
This should be very straight foward; a calculation that FCP should be able to do without so many major mistakes. Granted we havent had to do the offline/online workflow in literally years. We typically work natively at DVCPro HD. No problem. But am still going to look into the issue at length when time permits. Having not handled the project until this point I cant easily trace back any funkiness that introduced itself.
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[rpfloyd] “Final DV 29.97 Sequence is then broken down and stripped naked–remove all attributes:”
That’s a big problem right there. DV 29.97 is Drop Frame. 720/59.94 in FCP is Non Drop Frame. You will have a host of Timecode issues and anything with a speed change will either capture backwards or in slo mo.
I run into this all the time when I conform 29.97 SD cuts to 720p/59.94 HD onlines. We’re actually going to start doing realtime cross conversions to 1080i/29.97 via the Kona 3 on some of our HD projects just to avoid the TC issues. With the Drop Frame TC, we’ll have locked solid captures. Speed changes will always be an issue, but we’ve had captures be over a minute off and when we run the numbers through a timecode calculator, we find that the NDF TC that was captured, perfectly matches the DF TC of the original.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network’s “Good Eats”
HD Editorial for “Assignment Earth”Read my blog! https://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi
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Excellent points Walter. Dv isn’t ALWAYS df though…
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Understand that FCP reads 720p only at non-drop. Knew that speed changes could be a problem which is why i removed them before MM. Removed all attributes in fact, yet the speed changes stayed with the Conform Project. Had to manually remove them from the sequence again. Walter: had actually been thinking about doing the next Conform by cross converting to 1080i 29.97. Good to hear a reaffirmation on that process. Have you done it yet? Seems technically sound…
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[rpfloyd] “Understand that FCP reads 720p only at non-drop”
it does that because it is a, progressive format and it is the SMPTE standard.
it’s just not something most people are used to working with.gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows -
[gary adcock] “it does that because it is a, progressive format and it is the SMPTE standard.”
It really makes no sense to me at all because the Panasonic Cameras and VTR’s all record in drop frame. FCP is the only thing in the process that does not do Drop Frame and like I said, we’re going to switch to a 1080i workflow just to get away from the TC issues.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network’s “Good Eats”
HD Editorial for “Assignment Earth”Read my blog! https://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi
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[rpfloyd] “Good to hear a reaffirmation on that process. Have you done it yet? Seems technically sound…”
We cut one entire documentary on Cheetahs using this method and had no issues with the fooatage. We’ll be starting a small section of Good Eats today using the cross convert as a test and I expect no issues with that either.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network’s “Good Eats”
HD Editorial for “Assignment Earth”Read my blog! https://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi
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[walter biscardi] “It really makes no sense to me at all because the Panasonic Cameras and VTR’s all record in drop frame. FCP is the only thing in the process that does not do Drop Frame and like I said, we’re going to switch to a 1080i workflow just to get away from the TC issues.”
Been chasing this one for a while, as you know Walter.
Only Part of it is an Apple issue, and part of it looks to be SMPTE “laziness” or bias towards the legacy standard of DF content except that the belief that progressive content was meant to be NDF- remember in HD that the playheads are physically slowed to achieve the 23.98 speed- even HDCam so that the full frames match the DF time base even though the content looks as if it is NDF.
Apple mostly follows the rules in regards to the issue, unfortunately no one else is. Certainly not the broadcasters
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
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