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PAL Field order problems
Hi all
Recently was working in a PAL uncompressed 10-bit timeline, capturing in the same codec via a Kona 2. Clips at 100% in the timeline were fine, but clips slowed down (to, say 50%, or 40%) played back with field judder, as if the field order was incorrect. Except, according to FCP (and the Kona 2 easy set-up I was using) all the field orders were upper field first. All captured clips behaved the same – even recaptured after checks.
This was NOT just needing to open a new sequence, with I tried anyway, and it was NOT an error in my capture or sequence settings. It was just incorrect on the SDI output I was viewing on a monitor. I’ve also noticed FCP adding a shift-fields filter automatically into my timeline when I put some clips in. Am I going crazy here (I was on a live job that did not allow me enough time to try everything to see what fixed it) or has someone else seen this?
A few years ago, I had this problem with slow-motion clips using a Digital Voodoo card. When I mentioned the problem I was having (having satisfied them that it was not my own error or settings) the UK distributor checked with Voodoo, who tried slowing a clip themselves. They came back and admitted that there was a problem with their settings in PAL that they were not aware of. I had to set the sequence up (as I remember it) with the field dominance set to LOWER). This problem only occurred when using the Digital Voodoo codec, not the uncompressed one.
Tell me there’s a simple solution to this – I don’t mind looking stupid in the cause of science. And please, don’t tell me it HAS TO BE my settings – because it just isn’t. I’ve been doing this long enough to check ’em. Also, I have a hunch that this is just a PAL issue. We have never had it working in NTSC, and the Voodoo issue (which may be totally unrelated of course) was PAL only.
Perhaps someone with a PAL system and a Kona 2 can try this for me sometime? Just use the Kona 10-bit uncompressed Easy setup, capture anything and put it in the timeline – then change the speed. If you’re at IBC, you can come and hit me over the head with my own stupidity, I’ll just be grateful for the explanation.
I’m just getting in the stocks. Go for it.
Ben
Editec Broadcast Editing Ltd
EVS & FCP specialists for live OB operations.“The Supercar Run” now available for international distribution from http://www.electricsky.com
See you at IBC – we’re there with our FCP/replay truck…
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8 Replies
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I can’t give you a solution , but I have noticed over the last couple of weeks FCP does put the shift fields filter in without being told to!
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So it’s not all in my head – at least not that bit….
Editec Broadcast Editing Ltd
EVS & FCP specialists for live OB operations.“The Supercar Run” now available for international distribution from http://www.electricsky.com
See you at IBC – we’re there with our FCP/replay truck…
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Somtehing like that happende to me once: I used an DVC pro 50 deck SDI to capture my footage. Had the same experience as you did: the footage came out with lower field first. But when I used the RGB connection everything was upper field first!! So maybe you can try to use the RGB conccetion.
Kool En De Anderen
dual 1.8 gig G5/Mac OS 10.4.6/Kona 2/Hugh 800 G diskarray, fibrechannel/FCP 5.02/AE 7 Pro
http://www.koolendeanderen.nl -
Is that because DV has lower field first frame ordering in PAL? Did you capture as uncompressed?
We only work for broadcast in Digibeta or HDCAM, so I don’t have an analogue RGB option. It would lower the quality anyway.
Ben
Editec Broadcast Editing Ltd
EVS & FCP specialists for live OB operations.“The Supercar Run” now available for international distribution from http://www.electricsky.com
See you at IBC – we’re there with our FCP/replay truck…
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It was something with the settings of this specific DVC pro 50 player (Philips, I believe). Could not be changed. Didn’t have that problem with another pro 50 player (Panasonic). I did capure in 10 bits uncompressed.
Indeed it seems that is has something to do with DV being lower field firstKool En De Anderen
dual 1.8 gig G5/Mac OS 10.4.6/Kona 2/Hugh 800 G diskarray, fibrechannel/FCP 5.02/AE 7 Pro
http://www.koolendeanderen.nl -
Ben,
I have just been working on a show with lots of slowed PAL shots from digi beta. I SDI recaptured the online images from a DV offline version which made verything upper field and found that a lot of slo mos looked a bit juddery unless the frame blend in the time remap section was ticked. It smoothed them a lot. Partiulalrly bad were the 50% slo mos.
The original judder was not as bad as fields reversed. I also noticed the shift fields filter had sometimes appeared (and had to be deleted), but assumed the original editor had put it in.
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No. FCP adds the ‘fields shift’ filter in all by itself sometimes. Don’t know why, but it smells of a bodge to me.
This is not the kind of judder you get with frame blending off. This is a PAL field order issue.
I’m gonna try this on a few stands at IBC – see if I can figure this out.
Ben
Editec Broadcast Editing Ltd
EVS & FCP specialists for live OB operations.“The Supercar Run” now available for international distribution from http://www.electricsky.com
See you at IBC – we’re there with our FCP/replay truck…
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I always work in the PAL 10 bit uncompressed world and have always had “judder” with slo-mo. I don’t know the difference between the 2 kinds of judder you mention. The only thing I DO know is that if I pop on a deinterlace filter and render the clip, the judder goes away…
If you get any better answers at IBC let us know!Dual 2.7 GHz G5, 4GB RAM, ATI Radeon 9650, Xserve RAID, AJA IO, 2 20″ Cinema Display, FCP 5.03, OS X10.4.3
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