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FCP SAN for feature
I’ve been editing on shared Avid systems for years, and am now looking to do so for the first time with FCP. I’ve got a feature project coming up, and would like to have a “Bob Zellin” type ethernet SAN between two edit systems, for one editor plus an assistant. And If I can have the option of connecting a laptop for additional editing when needed, that’d be nice too.
We’ll likely be cutting ProRes 1080P 24fps, and should need about 8TB of disc space. What type of disc storage would this configuration require? Would a 4x2TB SATA raid be fast enough? Or do I need to go Fibre Channel?
I’m also very interested in emulating Avid style project sharing by using the FCP workflow in which the SAN is used as the project at the finder level. This has been described by Mark Raudonis and others…
https://www.avid2fcp.com/articles/sharing-projects
https://www.editdog.net/Final_Cut_Synergy/Synergy_Overview.htmlSo what about SAN software? Is it even required with this workflow.
I’ll likely contact a systems integrator when I have an actual budget to work with.
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5 Replies
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Hi Paul –
I am going to be VERY careful when I respond to your post.
Please read carefully.I’ve got a feature project coming up, and would like to have a “Bob Zelin” type ethernet SAN between two edit systems, for one editor plus an assistant. And If I can have the option of connecting a laptop for additional editing when needed, that’d be nice too.
We’ll likely be cutting ProRes 1080P 24fps, and should need about 8TB of disc space. What type of disc storage would this configuration require? Would a 4x2TB SATA raid be fast enough? Or do I need to go Fibre Channel?REPLY – in most situations, this would be a simple answer. But you are doing a feature, and you will ultimately need to play out possibly 90 minutes continuous of your feature at 1080p 24fps.
I cannot promise you that my system will work. We do countless systems now, most for commercials, informercials, show openings, show segments, etc. all at this resolution. But we have ONE CLIENT who is doing a 90 minute documentary, and he cannot play out without drop frames. He can take a 30 minute show, and loop it for 3 hours without issue, but to play out from the array for a full 90 minutes, it never works. We don’t know why. We did another feature in Orlando FL recently, and the entire feature was cut on a LOCAL 8 TB drive array, even though the segments were done using our shared storage solution. So I am waring you that this may not work for your feature, if you expect a full playout at this resolution for 90 minutes.So what about SAN software? Is it even required with this workflow.
REPLY – you do not need SAN software for our system. It’s just Apple File Sharing – it’s very simple, and requires no training. Our stuff just works. But we are not AVID Unity, and we are not fast like a fibre system. We can do ProRes422HQ all day long, on multiple systems, with the same footage, but our typical jobs range from 30 seconds to 30 minutes. We have had issues with 90 minute playouts, and I need you to be aware of this before you spend your money.
I’ll likely contact a systems integrator when I have an actual budget to work with.
REPLY – I am one of the few honest guys. Most companies just want to sell you anything, and will say “yes, our system does that” – whether it does, or does not. There is a massive cost difference between our system and XSAN, but XSAN is a great (but complex) system. Because you only have 3 clients, our system would be ideal for you, but because you require a 90 minute playout (without drop frames), I cannot promise you it’s going to work. The cost of an XSAN system with Active Storage arrays will be 5 – 6 times the cost of our system for the same storage.
As for your storage, you are going to spend at least $5000 for a PROFESSIONAL RELIABLE RAID 5 array. If you start trying to save money and look at crap, like the G-Speed eS, you will regret your decision. There are LOTS of great drive arrays on the market, most are being advertised on Creative Cow. You know very well how much AVID Unity costs, and any shared storage system for FCP is dramatically cheaper – even XSAN. So dont be penny wise and pound foolish.
Bob Zelin
I’ve been editing on shared Avid systems for years, and am now looking to do so for the first time with FCP. I’ve got a feature project coming up, and would like to have a “Bob Zellin” type ethernet SAN between two edit systems, for one editor plus an assistant. And If I can have the option of connecting a laptop for additional editing when needed, that’d be nice too.
We’ll likely be cutting ProRes 1080P 24fps, and should need about 8TB of disc space. What type of disc storage would this configuration require? Would a 4x2TB SATA raid be fast enough? Or do I need to go Fibre Channel?
I’m also very interested in emulating Avid style project sharing by using the FCP workflow in which the SAN is used as the project at the finder level. This has been described by Mark Raudonis and others…
https://www.avid2fcp.com/articles/sharing-projects
https://www.editdog.net/Final_Cut_Synergy/Synergy_Overview.htmlSo what about SAN software? Is it even required with this workflow.
I’ll likely contact a systems integrator when I have an actual budget to work with.
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Bob,
Thanks for that very informative reply.
Working with 1080p is kinda my ideal. But since this is still offline editorial, that’s flexible. Heck, I’ve usually used DV resolution. On this project, I just want to cut at some flavor of HD that will hold up for audience previews on a fairly large screen. So perhaps I could experiment and find a less bandwidth hungry format that will hold up to 90+ minutes of continuous playout?
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Paul,
you could just put three drives in a raid zero on one of your mac pro systems and export a self contained ProRes HD file to that for playout. This way you get the benefit of shared storage during editing and have a reliable way to playout without dropping frames. I always render to my local drive even though I have a shared storage server. Renders are faster this way and also does not kill the throughput on the file server for other people. The ProRes Proxy format is equivalent of the DNX36 on Avid and will hold up miles better on a big screen than DV.
Listen to Bob though, get a good quality RAID chassis, or you’ll hate yourself. This is all a fraction of the price of a unity anyway. A 4 drive array is usually only good as Direct attached storage for one machine. If you want to keep decent performance when your drives get full, and you do more renders, you’ll need more drives in a bigger array. Make sure you have hardware RAID 5. A bad drive will be your worst nightmare otherwise, and having a backup drive is not a bad idea either.
Good luck!
David 😀—————–
David Chai
Director . Camera . Editor
http://www.davidchai.com
dc@davidchai.com
212 363 0159 -
Hey Bob (or anyone), have you ever deployed one of your systems where the server and the primary editor were the same machine? As in, take a good Fibre Channel array and plug it directly into a good Mac Pro, then share that Mac Pro Fibre Channel array over the network (using good network gear). Then do the majority of your editing directly on the Mac Pro with the occasional laptop or other machine doing simple tape logging and/or basic editing?
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I will respond to dave Klee, but first to David Chai –
I am begining to love you. You are the only guy (or one of the only guys) on this forum that not only can put one of these shared storage systems together, but understands the limitations of these systems, and is willing to deal with the limitations, and develop work arounds, without crying like a baby. There are so many people that want to spend almost zero money, and want it to perform like AVID Unity.
as for Mr. Klee –
Hey Bob (or anyone), have you ever deployed one of your systems where the server and the primary editor were the same machine? As in, take a good Fibre Channel array and plug it directly into a good Mac Pro, then share that Mac Pro Fibre Channel array over the network (using good network gear). Then do the majority of your editing directly on the Mac Pro with the occasional laptop or other machine doing simple tape logging and/or basic editingREPLY – we tried this, but not with Fibre channel. What we found is that while this may work in short tests, the system ultimately fails unless you havea MAC dedicated as a server for the system. When you start to use your server as an editing work station, everything starts to fail. In initial demos, we thought we could do it too, and we have seen countless people say “oh no – it works, we edit from the server as well” – but when you see REAL JOBS that involve shows longer than a few minutes, you are in dropped frame hell.
BUT if you have client systems that have BOTH local storage, AND ethernet shared storage – this works out very very well, and we do this all the time. And for the “ultimate” system (which is overkill), at Disney Broadcast Ops, we started with the ethernet system, which works well for 5 systems, but when they needed horsepower to do 9 streams of multiclip on 2 systems at the same time, and our system could not do it, they added an ADDITONAL XSAN shared storage system (with Active Storage XRaids), so now they run BOTH SAN SYSTEMS at the same time on the same clients without issue.
Yes I know -if they got the XSAN first, they would not need our system, but hey, I had to give the example.BobZelin
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