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Networking Editing Computers
So I am still learning alot about the whole networking of 2 computers.
I have called around to get ideas from some of the companies on networking: Apple and ProMax to start.
But I wanted to get your ideas and other options I could look to for connecting 2 computers with Final Cut Pros on them.
Trying to find a good solution for a good cost. The ethernet over a network isn’t fast enough. We do alot of HDV and HDCAM. (Compressed at the moment of course for WS Standard)
WE have:
1 – MAC PRO 8-Core
1 – Quad G5
1 – XRaid
4 – 1TB Externals
4GB Fibre Channel Cards in Both Computers
2 Seperate Final Cut Pro LincesesThank you.
-Raymond Tuquero-
Houston Editor -
13 Replies
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Raymond,
I can give you some input here that you can use.
If you are networking the two workstations together with Fibre Channel, you can do that of course. You’ll be spending about 1.5 – 2x the cost of what it would cost you to do this with Ethernet though.
For what you are talking about doing, even with two clients, this is close 20K price point for all the FC hardware and SAN Software License you would need. You are missing the pieces like a SAN Software License to manage storage, Fiber Channel Switch to manage connections, and MetaData Servers and all the extra redundancy you need on the network which is Required for Fibre Channel in case something breaks. Oh, and you’ll need to hire someone or have someone to call on to manage the network, unless you are XSAN certified. If you are looking for a “good cost” as you put it, FC will NOT be ideal!
If you think you cannot edit HDV on Ethernet, why?
You can complete Video Editing with Final Cut over Ethernet and this does occur in “real time” as long as your storage is fast enough and the rest of the pieces are in place for you to do it properly. There’s more then plenty of bandwidth on a Gigabit wire for what you’ve said in your post.
There is also the question of purchasing a Server (Mac Pro or XServe). If you don’t have a server (or sometimes Software) to manage the client connectivity from the switch to the server, or the direct connections to the server, you run a risk of corrupting each other’s work on the storage. The server plays traffic cop, it will make sure it’s the only one reading and writing to the storage. Each user would log into the server, and use the storage that’s attached to it to complete their tasks. This removes the idea of local attached storage at each workstation for any editing that is NOT HD Uncompressed.
The XRAID can move at about 160MB of total bandwidth. For DV and HDV, this would be enough bandwidth to support two users, however, I believe the latency of the disks are really poor, which could lead to dropped frames. Apple certainly does not recommend or suggest using these as Video Editing RAIDS.
What you need to make what you are trying to do work is the following
Another Apple to be your server, Mac Pro or XServe
a Small Tree NIC (PEG4 or PEG6) for your Server
Some other storage, recommended from Small Tree is an ST-RAID. They were designed and are certified to support multiple Pro Res HQ streams over an Ethernet based network utilizing Shared Storage. There are 8, 12, and 16TB configs available.I hope this helps a little.
I’m sure someone else will give their two cents also.
Regards,
Matt G
651-209-6509 x 1 -
Ray,
you dont’ need to buy anything. You are so hot to get advice from Apple or ProMax, who can’t wait to sell you equipment. I will tell you how to get your stuff to work right now, with ethernet.you write –
So I am still learning alot about the whole networking of 2 computers. –REPLY – you only want to network 2 computers, so you can share the drive from one of the computers, right ?
I have called around to get ideas from some of the companies on networking: Apple and ProMax to start.
REPLY – your first mistake.
Trying to find a good solution for a good cost.
REPLY – I will show you how to do this for free, right now.The ethernet over a network isn’t fast enough.
REPLY – oh yes it is.
We do alot of HDV and HDCAM. (Compressed at the moment of course for WS Standard)
REPLY – HDV is nothing. If you are doing compressed HD, specifically ProRes422 or ProRes422HQ, ethernet is just fine.
WE have:
1 – MAC PRO 8-Core –
REPLY – ok, this will be our temporary “server”.1 – Quad G5
REPLY – ok, this will be our temporary “client”1 – XRaid –
REPLY – I hope this is on the MAC Pro, for this demonstration, so you can share the Xserve RAID with the Quad G5.4 – 1TB Externals
REPLY – even if it’s not, we can use the 1TB externals for our demo if they are on the MAC Pro.4GB Fibre Channel Cards in Both Computers
2 Seperate Final Cut Pro LincesesREPLY – ok, here we go. Connect a regular boring CAT 5e ethernet cable between MAC Pro Ethernet Port # 2, and the MAC G5 Quad Ethernet port 2. Nothing else can be using ethernet port 2. If you have your network setup on these computers, just use ethernet port 1 for your regular network, until we finish this demo – ok ?
OK, so now you have a single ethernet cable between the MAC Pro and MAC G5 Quad on ethernet port 2.
On the MAC Pro (our server), go to System Preferences>Network>Ethernet Port 2, and MANUALLY configure this port. Assign a manual static IP address of 192.168.2.3, and a subnet mask of 255.255.255.0. Noththing else. Hit APPLY. Click on ADVANCED. Click on the ethernet tab. Change from Automatic to MANUAL, and say 1000baseT, flow-control, full-duplex, and
MTU CUSTOM:8100 (you have to enter the number 8100). Click Apply, OK, etc.On your MAC G5 Quad, go to System Preferences>Network>Ethernet Port 2, and MANUALLY configure this port. Enter a manual IP address of 192.168.2.4, and a subnet mask of 255.255.255.0. Nothing else. Hit APPLY. Click on Advanced. Click on the ethernet tab. Change from Automatic to MANUAL, and say 1000baseT, flow-control, full-duplex, and set the MTU size to custom – 8100 (manually type in the number 8100) . click Apply, ok, until you are out of this menu.
On your MAC G5 Quad, go to System Preferences>SHARING, and on the top, you will see the name of the computer. Make it something nice and simple, like “edit1”. Click on System Preferences>Accounts, and make sure that the same name appears here, like “edit1”. Make sure that this computer has a password, and if it doesn’t, give it a password, like “RAY”.
Go back to your new “server” computer – the MAC Pro. Go into the System Preferences menu>SHARING, and make sure this computer has a nice name, like “edit2”, or “server”, or wahtever you like. Then go into System Preferences>Accounts, and make sure that it has the same name (like “edit2”), and make sure it has a password (like “RAY”).
OK, now, on the server computer – the MAC Pro, click on the System PReferences>SHARING Icon, and you will see on the left hand side – FILE SHARING. Click this on. All of a sudden, 3 columns open up. The first column is for drive volumes that you are going to share. Click the “+” key, and add your XServe RAID (or your 1 terabyte external drive, or anything else) to be your shared drive volume. In the next column is USERS. Click on the “+” sign in this column, and add a NEW USER. The new user box will open, and you will enter the NAME AND PASSWORD of the MAC G5 Quad – like “edit1” for the name, and “RAY” for the password. Once you click on this, you will now make “edit1” able to share the XServe RAID on the MAC Pro. In the third column, it now says “READ ONLY” next to “edit1”. Make that say “READ AND WRITE”.
OK, we are ready.
Walk over to your MAC G5 Quad computer. Click on GO>Connect To Server. Enter this number – 192.168.2.3 (this is the address of ethernet port 2 of the MAC Pro). It will now ask you for a name and password. Your name is “edit1”, and your password is “RAY”. Click CONNECT. WOW, there is your XServe RAID appearing on your MAC G5 Quad computer.
Click on the drive. Open up a Quicktime file, or FCP file. HOLY CRAP RAY – you are now playing the compressed HD movie from the MAC Pro on your MAC G5 QUAD computer.
YOU DID NOT SPEND ONE PENNY, and now you have shared storage. Wow, Ray, how did this happen ?
Now, if you want to have true shared storage, all you need is a dedicated MAC Pro, and about $2000 in special ethernet equipment, and THAT IS ALL. Pretty amazing – huh ?
See Ray – it DOES work – stop asking dealers whose only concern is to get $50,000 from you.
Bob Zelin
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WOW guys thanks …
The reason I felt it didn’t work was because when we first hooked up the computers and used just the networking of OSX Leopard … the footage was running super slow and drop frames were everywhere.
I will try these things here and let you know what happens.
THANKS A BUNCH … by the way we do also have a 2TB XRaid as well.
what are your thoughts on the eSATA cable drives … should I upgrade the card to that over Firewire 800 ? ?
Thank again.
-Raymond Tuquero-
Houston Editor -
you write –
The reason I felt it didn’t work was because when we first hooked up the computers and used just the networking of OSX Leopard … the footage was running super slow and drop frames were everywhere.REPLY – because you were on your normal network. When you follow my hookup, you will have a DEDICATED ETHERNET NETWORK (ethernet port 2), assigning STATIC IP ADDRESSES (not DHCP), and enabling JUMBO FRAMES. Follow my instructions word by word. Make sure that ethernet port 2 has the MTU set for 8100. Make sure that you do not have your internet or ethernet switch hooked up to ethernet port 2 for any reason. You are creating a DEDICATED NETWORK to do this.
Just follow my instructions.THANKS A BUNCH … by the way we do also have a 2TB XRaid as well.
REPLY – I am sorry. The XServe RAID is a piece of crap. You will get better response from three Hitachi SATA drives stripped RAID 0 inside your MAC Pro.
what are your thoughts on the eSATA cable drives … should I upgrade the card to that over Firewire 800 ? ?
REPLY – you cant’ use Firewire 800 for a shared storage enviornment. This is truly crap (worse than the Apple XServe RAID).
The internal drives in a MAC are SATA drives. If you are doing this for real, you will need a dedicated MAC Pro server, and a large dedicated SATA array, as well as hi speed ethernet equipment from a company like Small Tree. What I have described to you in my last post was just for a QUICK TEST, so you can prove to yourself that this process works. When it’s all said and done, you will ultimately spend about $10,000 for a proper solution.bob zelin
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Killer post Bob 😉
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Ok so I just tried a quick test.
Unplugged Edit 1 macpro from the switch
Plugged ethernet from edit1 into ethernet2 on macpro(server)
So on server ethernet 1 >Switch (public)
ethernet 2 > edit 1 (Ethernet2) Direct.Setup as above.
Server setup all okEdit 1 setup – no connection unless is set speed to automatic. :-/ weird.
I then change to DHCP with manual IP and this allowed full Manual input in setting speed :-/
Q, why 8100 and not just set as Jumbo(9000)
Running a speed test going through the switch was actually faster than a direct connect:-/ weird No.2
Ever come across this in ethernet setup in osx Bob ?
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you write –
Edit 1 setup – no connection unless is set speed to automatic. :-/ weird.REPLY – forget all the techno mumbo jumbo. If you assign as static IP, like 192.168.2.3 to one ethernet port on one MAC, and 192.168.2.4 to another MAC, you simply turn on file sharing on one mac, and ping the other computer, and you will see it. If you dont’ have a connection, you typed in the wrong address, or you have a bad cable.
I then change to DHCP with manual IP and this allowed full Manual input in setting speed :-/
REPLY – you dont’ need to do this.
Q, why 8100 and not just set as Jumbo(9000)
and I quote from the bible (bow your head when you read this) –
“That allows the entire frame to fit into 2 4K mbufs. 9000 overruns them and the third must be allocated, but it’s not compeltely used. 8100 is a good number becuase with headers, it still comes in under 8192. There is a 14 byte ethernet header, an ip header, a tcp header, and then options and checksums. So you odnt’ want to make it 8192 because iwth the headers, it will go over. It’s not a huge benefit, but theres some reduction in memory use and time spent alocation and reallocating mfubs. You probably won’t notice better performance, but you may notice lower cpu.”I got more if you want it.
Bob Zelin
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🙂 sure.. hit me with it.. love this stuff. Very informative.
I did enter the IP’s trust me I followed ya;) But no connection 🙁
One of the macs HAD to have SPEED set to AUTO and all was fine.Obviously it set to 1000 but unsure if it then uses flowcontrol if on auto:-/
Anyways.. small tree stuff coming soon so no biggy 🙂
Thanks as always.
si
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Now, if you want to have true shared storage, all you need is a dedicated MAC Pro, and about $2000 in special ethernet equipment, and THAT IS ALL. Pretty amazing – huh ?
Hi Bob,
thanks for the time you spend on this forum,
your replies are helping me try and sort out problems I may incur trying to network FCP’s in a “fly-away” edit operation.
I have used my macbook pro to do some standalone editing within the tape suite.We are looking at up to 3 FCP’s networked for ingest/edit/vo and playout for a same day sports broadcast. (with a perhaps graphics station connected to drop graphics into the storage)
In the past we have edited on a 3 machine tape suite, plus another digi for vo/playout. (You can imagine how the excess baggage mounts up!) The programmes are SD but I assume that at some time they will go compressed HD ( XDcam?)We should like to reduce the weight and amount of equipment we are using.
From other threads I have learned that at the least we should need a mac pro with raid storage (or xserve) as the video server to give enough bandwidth to the 2 or 3 laptop FCP edit machines.If I am only connecting 3 machines to the server, do I really need to combine the 4 port ethernet card outputs to a managed ethernet switch? Is there any problem in just connecting each machine to a port and giving each the 1Ghz bandwidth, and connecting using AFP?
At a push CAN the server mac pro be used for viewing/ ingesting or does it HAVE to be left alone?
Thanks in advance
Steve -
Steve writes –
If I am only connecting 3 machines to the server, do I really need to combine the 4 port ethernet card outputs to a managed ethernet switch? Is there any problem in just connecting each machine to a port and giving each the 1Ghz bandwidth, and connecting using AFP?
At a push CAN the server mac pro be used for viewing/ ingesting or does it HAVE to be left alone?
REPLY – Steve, I dont’ know the answer to your question. A Small Tree ES4524D costs about $1200, and is only 1 rack unit. This is a tiny expense, and a tiny box to bring along. In a bare bones configuration, you buy a PEG4 card, a $1200 switch, stick it in your MAC Pro with 3 internal 1 Terabyte SATA drives, and you have instant shared storage. Is this not cheap enough, and tiny enough for you ?
Can the server MAC Pro be used for viewing/injest. Well, I say no, but the answer is yes. People do it all the time. But if I say “yes”, and the system starts to crash, people call and say “hey, you told me this thing would work, and it’s crashing all the time”.
If you just leave the server MAC alone, you will have no issues. Can you view files – sure. Can you pop in an AJA product and injest – absolutely if you are not editing with the other 3 systems at the same time. But if you “push it” – could it work – sure it can – but if it fails, DONT CALL ME, becuase I told you it wouldn’t work.IF you want to contact me, just go to my website.
Bob Zelin
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