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Questions for HDX900 users
I’m interested in learning how those who already have and are using the HDX900 are positioning it to your clients and potential clients. Varicam and CineAlte are so branded and asked for in this industry by name by people (like young production managers) who only know that’s what they are supposed to ask for, that I wonder how you describe this camera and convince those less technically savy. In otherwords, someone calls and asks for a Varicam. You say, our Varicam is not available but we have the HDX900, which is almost like the Varicam except it doesn’t have as much variety in it’s frame rate, it’s 14 bit instead of 12, the shutter isn’t variable, and it will cost you less to hire us with it. Is that how the conversation goes, or are DPs starting to get calls asking for this camera in particular? Any input here would be great, as I’m on the fence about adding one to our packages.
Also, can I hand a tape from this camera to anyone who is used to getting a Varicam tape and from their point of view (and in post) is it exactly the same? Same decks?
Has anyone found a “white paper” on the exact differences between the HDX900 and the Varicam? Anybody able to list them?
And finally, does anyone have any experience with the Fuji lens that Panasonic packages with the HDX900? I’ve heard from a Canon rep (of course) that it’s a pretty low-end high def lens (they are calling it “industrial”.) Fuji rep claims it’s as good as their others.
Thanks for any feedback here.
Tom Miller
Big Pictures
http://www.getbigpix.com -
19 Replies
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The HDX900 marketing for both sales and rentals revolves around it been a cheaper price than the Varicam (and any other comperable tape based 2/3″ HD camera)! I expect that rental rates eventually will stabilize at “betacam” prices (ie $600/day), while the Varicam and Cine Alta will remain a little higher (until of course the arrival of the 2/3″ HD XDCAM).
The tapes made by the HDV will not play in all the Panasonic desks; specifically not in the 130 and 150 decks which accompanied the early Varicams. They will play in the current 1200/1400 and 1700 decks, the main distinction beeing the head gap size of 9 microns vs. the 18 microns in the Varicam.
If I were buying a DVCPRO100 camera right now, I’d prefer a used Varicam to a new HDX at a similar price (maybe $5000 more). This will allow the use of the extra features (variable speeds, dynamic range controls, etc) and benefit from getting the extra rental when you can (they ask for Varicam) or cutting a matching deal to the going price of the HDV.
JMHO
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Great points. Thank you. I like this camera, I just don’t want to have to apologize for it not being a Varicam.
Tom Miller
Big Pictures
http://www.getbigpix.com -
[john sharaf] “The tapes made by the HDV will not play in all the Panasonic desks; specifically not in the 130 and 150 decks which accompanied the early Varicams. They will play in the current 1200/1400 and 1700 decks,”
I am sure that John meant to say HDX not HDV, here.
Ray Palmer, Engineer
Salt River Project
Phoenix, AZ
602-236-8224 office
There are three types of people in this world, those that can count and those that can’t. -
Ray,
Sorry about the typo/slip; until I spend the $25K on one I’m sure I’ll subconsciously keep calling it by the wrong name!
JS
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I’m not making excuses about the camera.
It’s not scientific, but when I’ve had my 900 next to a Varicam F it looked almost identical on the monitor with the main differnce being that the 900 was noticeably less noisy in the low light areas. I tell people it doesn’t have all the frame rates of the Varicam, but it does do 60fps slow mo and several slow shutter rates. It does have some dynamic range control and in general looks great; what clients shooting in HD expect.Another advantage of the HDX 900 is that I’ve been able to use it on a project where the client was using HDX400s shooting 1081i.
We have $45+K in HD lenses, $7.5K + in HD monitors, + tripod, zoom contol, matte box, filters, etc. When packaged with lighting/grip truck, HMIs, Kinos,…rental price isn’t much lower than Vaicam.
Most HD work in our area, that isn’t done with a smaller mini HD camera, is still pretty high end and the clients are used to paying higher rates. If a client wants to just use one lens and no 17″ client monitor, etc. the rate becomes more competative.
As more clients get into HD and more HD cameras are around, I assume that rates will go down a bit. The current cameras probably won’t have the same shelf live as Betacams, so I hope that the rates will be higher than what Betacam rates were.
The Fujinon 18X7.6 HD lens with 2X did have some problems. Some inherent (like very exagerated breathing when racking focus.) I did have some other issues. I sent the lens back to Fujinon. I hope that the issues will be fixed. The 18X7.6 with no 2x that I have as a loaner doesn’t seem to have the same problems. I have not compared this lens to Canon’s lower priced HD Zoom. I would be interested to hear if someone has. The Fujinon 13X4.5 w2x seems great with almost no breathing or other issues.
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We looked at buying a used Varicam but I couldn’t seem to get past the many features that the 900 has that the Varicam does not. I think you’ll find lots of Varicam owners losing rental ground to cameras like the 900 and whatever Sony has in store. I agree that the rental might be 600-700 a day, but that is a heck of a lot more than a Betacam rig which can be found for about 300 a day in cities like Austin, Texas. We’ve got our 900 paired up with a nice Cannnon wide angle which should bring a nice price on the market.
Pat Fries
Patrick Fries
Director/DP
Arrowhead Films
Austin, Texas 512-302-1100 -
Surely there is scope to market the 900 at a premium as it records more pixels than Varicam…..
Mike Brennan
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Michael,
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but the HDX900 uses the same 1.1 million pixel set that the Varicam uses so it does not “have more pixels”. It’s 1080 implementation is by scaleing, just as the 1200/1400 deck does. I wouldn’t be suprised to learn that theyv both use the same design concept and/or chip to do so.
JS
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I think you have to have a business plan to support this camera and separate the rental issue. If you’re like most production outfits, you use the camera for your own projects and every once in a while you get a call for a specific camera. For us, we’ve been waiting for the right time to convert our operation to HD and we used the HDX900, the 1400 deck and the Cannon HJ 11 x 4.7 Super Wide lens. We demo’d the Fuji that comes with the package and it looked and felt like a toy and I figured we could either pay now or pay later, so we jumped off the package. I think the Fuji is actually last years glass and they re-packaged it to make a price point that converts like us could afford.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, we have four edit suites and now have the 900 and 200(P2) as our main cameras. We kept our A500 Digibeta since a lot of our old source material is on that.
Hope that helps.
Patrick Fries
Arrowhead Films, AustinPatrick Fries
Director/DP
Arrowhead Films
Austin, Texas 512-302-1100 -
Take this with a grain of salt since this is from a rental house point of view so it differs from the individuals who choose to own their own HDX900.
When ever a client calls to rent equipment, We try to learn how they are using the camera and what they are trying to accomplish. We prefer to act almost as a production partner rather than a rental house. There are, as mentioned in this forum, many reasons that a client really needs to use the Varicam. As soon as we realize that, the answer is easy, we will find the client a Varicam even if it can’t be one of ours. We would not try and convince them that the HDX900 is a good alternative if it isn’t and knowing what they are doing is the first step. (As I re-read that last paragraph it sounded really sales like but it is true.)
As for positioning the HDX900, we simply treat it like just another camera that records DVCPro HD. Once we determine that the HDX900 can work for their job, the positioning is pretty easy and not much different from helping them choose one DVCAM camcorder over another. (We have 10 different cameras that can record in the DVCAM format.) Since this is a really new camera, some clients would prefer a demo and, if time allows based on shoot schedule, we would accommodate.
Bottom line, if the client is still not confident, we would still get them a Varicam however, we have been around for awhile and I would like to think that our clients trust our opinion.
OK, next question: Most decks used today will play the HDX900 tapes but that is because most people have been using the Panasonic 1200A or HD1700 decks (and soon the HD1400). In the early Varicam days, there were also the AJ-HD130 and the AJ-HD150 decks. This was before the new LP or EX format existed and they record and play back only in the 18 micron track pitch. Bottom line is that these decks will play a Varicam tape and will not play a HDX900 tape. Think of it in similar terms to Beta decks and BetaSP decks.
I have not found a ‘white paper’ on the exact differences but most things you would find on a white paper is already known. The more interesting things are the ones not advertised like how the knee compares between the two or how to re-create a Film Rec look for the clients that actually shoot in that mode for the look. We do those tests in house however as our curisity gets the best of us.
And finally, as to the Fujinon lens… We tested it in a limited way since the moment the cameras came in the door, they went right out to clients. That said, none of our clients have reported any problems or dislikes with the lens. They have been added to our complete inventory so that a client could choose the Fujinon 17x lens with the F900 if they wish.
Andrew Dunn
Equipment Manager
Rule Broadcast Systems
https://www.rule.com
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