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framerate questions!
hi guys!
i dont really understand the deal with the framerate … lets recap what i know so far … with the hvx200 i can shoot in 24p native, 30p (1080i) and 60p (720p) … what the guy at rental space told me is that if i shoot 24p native im fine for editing and putting the footage on a video dvd … but if i want to broadcast it (ntsc) i have to make a “pullup”, which is supposed not to be the best solution … so if i shoot in 30p im fine broadcasting it …
what i heard so far is that even if i shoot in 30p it still recording the footage in 60i (with an internal camera pulldown). is that correct? if yes … how i have to setup the timeline options in fcp to edit propperly
the other thing is that we want to do a few slowmotion shots … so i figured out that if we are using 30p and it actually records 60i we easily can adjust the speed down to 50% … is that correct?
and my last question is: what exactly is the difference between 30p and 60i if the camcorder actually records on 60i anyway???
and my very last question is: what is the deal with1080i and 720p if hd is progressiv anyway?
im really thankful for any opinions, reccommendations and help concerning this topic!
thank you very much!
best
florian -
10 Replies
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[firewireflow] “with the hvx200 i can shoot in 24p native, 30p (1080i) and 60p (720p)”
OK only the 720p format is always progressive, 1080 is ALWAYS recorded in the HVX as interlace and then reconstructed back into the sony compatible format called a progressive segmented frame (same as hdcam shoots) 1080 24 plays back at 48i ( again just like hdcam)
in the 720 shooting mode you have multiple available frame rates from 12-60 (more if you know the hack)
[firewireflow] ” my very last question is: what is the deal with1080i and 720p if hd is progressiv anyway?”
Not all HD is progressive –ATSC delivery specs include 1080i for broadcast.
Even BluRay delivery is actually delivering at 24psf (which plays back as 48i according to the sony specification)gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows -
[gary adcock] “and then reconstructed back into the sony compatible format called a progressive segmented frame (same as hdcam shoots) 1080 24 plays back at 48i ( again just like hdcam)”
No it doesn’t. 48i never enters into the equation, that’s an HDCAM-only thing. In the HVX the footage is recorded within a 60i stream, and when imported into FCP it’s either treated as 60i (if the pulldown isn’t removed) or, if you shot 1080/24pA, the pulldown gets removed and it becomes a 1080/24P stream. Not fields anymore, it’s reconstituted to its progressive frames. All processing, effects, and rendering are done at 24P, not 48i.
You can’t output 24P to a broadcast-compatible stream without adding in some pulldown to round the sequence back up to 60i (or, for 720, 60P). FCP will do that for you automatically when you tell it to output the file.
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Get the most from your DVX camera. The DVX Book and DVX DVD are now available on ebay and at Amazon (https://www.fiftv.com/db) -
[firewireflow] “what the guy at rental space told me is that if i shoot 24p native im fine for editing and putting the footage on a video dvd … but if i want to broadcast it (ntsc) i have to make a “pullup”, which is supposed not to be the best solution … so if i shoot in 30p im fine broadcasting it …”
Well, yes, but he’s making it sound like a big deal when it’s not. If you want the filmlike look, shoot 24P. Edit 24P. When it’s time to output to a broadcast-compatible stream for HD, you’ll have to conform it to either 1080/60i or 720/60P, but it’s no big deal because FCP will do that for you.
30P will get output within a 60i container so no pulldown is necessary, but — it’s not a big deal. Every movie you’ve ever watched on TV or VHS has had 3:2 pulldown inserted into it to make it compatible with broadcast. It’s done all the time.
[firewireflow] “what i heard so far is that even if i shoot in 30p it still recording the footage in 60i (with an internal camera pulldown). is that correct? if yes … how i have to setup the timeline options in fcp to edit propperly”
Yes that’s correct, but it’s no big deal. Just use the Easy Setup for DVCPRO-HD 1080/30p (there is one, isn’t there? I don’t use FCP…) You could also edit it on a 60i timeline but I don’t recommend that, as any titles or motion graphics or dissolves would be rendered on a field basis and be a bit “disconnected” from the underlying progressive footage. If you shoot 1080/30p, edit it on a 30p timeline.[firewireflow] “the other thing is that we want to do a few slowmotion shots … so i figured out that if we are using 30p and it actually records 60i we easily can adjust the speed down to 50% … is that correct?”
Well, yes and no. You could shoot your slow-mo stuff at 1080/60i and import it into your project and play it back at 50% speed, selecting to de-interlace using an interpolation method, and it’d basically work. But you may be better off to just shoot your slow-mo stuff in 720pN mode, as you’ll get a lot more frame rates to choose from, and with a little scaling those clips should work great on the FCP timeline.[firewireflow] “and my last question is: what exactly is the difference between 30p and 60i if the camcorder actually records on 60i anyway???”
The images are created at 30p. They then get split into fields for recording, since in 1080 mode the video format (DVCPRO-HD) is only capable of handling interlaced. So each frame gets split into two fields for recording, and then in post they get un-split and recombined back into pure progressive frames. So the interlaced process is merely a “basket” that you carry the progressive footage within.
Yes the final recorded format is 1080/60i, but shooting 1080/30p looks very different from shooting 1080/60i. 1080/60i has the fluid “reality” look, the “video” look. Shooting 30p gives more of a stroby “film” look. Even though they both end up being recorded in a 1080/60i transport stream, the inherent footage carries a very different look.
[firewireflow] “and my very last question is: what is the deal with1080i and 720p if hd is progressiv anyway?”
Two different standards of HD. FOX, ESPN, and ABC all broadcast 720p. CBS, NBC, PBS, and Discovery all broadcast 1080i. They’re both HD, they both push about 60 million pixels through the TV every second, it’s just that 1080 is interlaced and 720 is always progressive.
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Get the most from your DVX camera. The DVX Book and DVX DVD are now available on ebay and at Amazon (https://www.fiftv.com/db) -
[Barry Green] “No it doesn’t. 48i never enters into the equation, that’s an HDCAM-only thing.”
Sorry I disagree,
Specs for the 1080 format call for PsF, or progressive segmented frame, playback devices render this content as 48i according to the read out my BTW1700 Panasonic display. It is my understanding that the only devices that can playback a true 24p image as progressive are D5, SRW, and highend DDR’s like Stwo, HDRave etc.
[Barry Green] “All processing, effects, and rendering are done at 24P, not 48i.”
that is correct,and I never said it was not, but the playback is still at 48i. Thats why it is called PsF.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows -
[gary adcock] “Specs for the 1080 format call for PsF, or progressive segmented frame, playback devices render this content as 48i according to the read out my BTW1700 Panasonic display. It is my understanding that the only devices that can playback a true 24p image as progressive are D5, SRW, and highend DDR’s like Stwo, HDRave etc.”
Playback to what though? I’m talking about how the footage is treated and edited. It is not split into fields, it’s handled as 24p footage, progressive frames.
If you have some sort of monitoring card installed and are piping it out to a monitor, then maybe 48i would come into the equation, but that has little to nothing to do with how the footage is handled by the editing system.
If it was truly 48i, then when you rendered motion graphics or titles over your footage you’d see a “disconnect” and field separation. You don’t, because the footage is treated at all times like 24p.
It may be getting converted to 48i for display on a 24fps interlaced monitor, but then again it’d get converted to 60i for display on a conventional CRT too. But that’s a conversion that’s handled in the after-the-NLE stage, not anything to do with how the footage is recorded or stored or manipulated.
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Get the most from your DVX camera. The DVX Book and DVX DVD are now available on ebay and at Amazon (https://www.fiftv.com/db) -
[Barry Green] “If you have some sort of monitoring card installed and are piping it out to a monitor, then maybe 48i would come into the equation, but that has little to nothing to do with how the footage is handled by the editing system.”
The playback on any HD Monitor is at 48i it cannot be anything else. Output to a computer or video steam would playback progressively but not to any type of monitor I know of and not currently possible over FW with the HVX or 1200 deck. The 1400 deck does allow for monitoring of HD content over the FW connection with out stuttering.
If you are not using a monitor, how are you going to properly finish any HD project? There has to be some sort of hardware in the mix- I do not know of any broadcaster that will take a file for delivery and most want HDCAM or D5 tape not DVCPROHD. You have to deliver the content in the manner needed and that requires hardware.
“It may be getting converted to 48i for display on a 24fps interlaced monitor, but then again it’d get converted to 60i for display on a conventional CRT too. But that’s a conversion that’s handled in the after-the-NLE stage, not anything to do with how the footage is recorded or stored or manipulated.”
That again would depend on the delivery- and it is not a post NLE stage it is the at the NLE stage. Some delivery may need to stay in the 23.98PsF format for output, as not all deliverables are at 60i
The difference is that I am looking at it from a solely post perspective and you are looking from the cameras point of view and they do not always view things in the same manner or form.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows -
[gary adcock] “The playback on any HD Monitor is at 48i it cannot be anything else.”
Not from the HVX. From the HVX playback is at 60i. It cannot play back 48i, it doesn’t record 48i, 48i never enters into the equation. It records its 24p signal embedded in 60i.If you export footage back to a card and play it back from there, it’ll be 60i.
[gary adcock] “The 1400 deck does allow for monitoring of HD content over the FW connection with out stuttering.”
Yes, but that output is not going to be 48i. It’s going to be 60i. Anyone working with FCP or EDIUS or Avid in a DVCPRO-HD sequence is going to be sending a 60i signal to their monitor. That’s what the codec supports, that’s what the transport stream is.
Maybe if you’re transcoding away from DVCPRO-HD, using an uncompressed suite such as one built for HDCAM, then maybe you’d run into 48i, but it would have nothing to do with the HVX or with the native editing of its footage.
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Get the most from your DVX camera. The DVX Book and DVX DVD are now available on ebay and at Amazon (https://www.fiftv.com/db) -
BARRY GREEN: “When it’s time to output to a broadcast-compatible stream for HD, you’ll have to conform it to either 1080/60i or 720/60P, but it’s no big deal because FCP will do that for you.”
We always output either a D5 1080p24 or an HDCAM SR 1080p24 master from the system. It’s called the Universal Mastering Format. Also these formats handle 5.1.
From there we can crossconvert to deliver NTSC 1080i60, 720/60p or PAL 1080i50 or down convert NTSC or PAL standard def delivery masters. It works beautifully.
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DK Davis / Editor/ Post Super
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[Barry Green] “Not from the HVX. From the HVX playback is at 60i. It cannot play back 48i, it doesn’t record 48i, 48i never enters into the equation. It records its 24p signal embedded in 60i.
If you export footage back to a card and play it back from there, it’ll be 60i.”But is that not a narrow view? It has to be handled away from the camera, thats a reality. And what good is having to record back to the card to get playback from your Camera/ NLE setup, and ONLY in 1080. In 720 this is not a discussion.
[Barry Green] “Anyone working with FCP or EDIUS or Avid in a DVCPRO-HD sequence is going to be sending a 60i signal to their monitor.”
Not at 23.98, why would they? 48I would be the correct playback, you keep differentiating between DVCPROHD and HDCam,
I contend that 1080 is 1080– without regard to what it was shot on.–the format is PsF for 23.98 and 24.0 playback and is interlaced for 29.97(really 59.94) or 60i How different editors handle it depends the NLE, but the format is the format.
[Barry Green] “Maybe if you’re transcoding away from DVCPRO-HD, using an uncompressed suite such as one built for HDCAM, then maybe you’d run into 48i, but it would have nothing to do with the HVX or with the native editing of its footage.”
no one delivers content on the HVX or on P2. The delivery method is on HDCAM or D5 as others have mentioned, but it does have to do with the editing process of the footage , as i does have to be delivered.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows -
[Daryl K Davis] “We always output either a D5 1080p24 or an HDCAM SR 1080p24 master from the system. It’s called the Universal Mastering Format”
I’m with Daryl…this is what we deliver as well. 1080p24 D5 or HDCAM masters.
Shane
Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net
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