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P2 or Firestore?
Hi there,
Okay, I know this debate has been going on for some time and have read the many posts about it, but now that many of you have had a lot of experience with the P2’s and Firestores – what are your thoughts and which direction would you suggest I go, as I’m finally about to take the HVX plunge.
Would you have made the same choice with what you know now (P2 or Firestore)?
For my puposes – about to shoot a series and then some docs.
Thanks for any info,
Dale -
12 Replies
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My experience is definitely go P2 if you can afford it. That and a P2 store and you’ll be totally good to go. I hear much more problems on the board with Firestore than with P2 cards.
Noah
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Gotta say, I’m on the other side from Noah. Just finished a project with HVX200, and had no problems
at all with FireStore. Worked like a charm.Fact of the matter, only problems I did/do have is getting P2 card dumps into my system. Don’t know
where it went crazy as it was working…But, considering what you get, FireStore gives much more record time for the price. Just do your home
work as the whole system, which ever way you go can be a bit complex. And make darn sure you never
plug or un plug anything into the camera while it;s on.Good luck.
p2
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If you need long, uninterrupted record times, then it’s the Firestore. It also gives you the most capacity per dollar. You also get a longer record-ahead buffer with a Firestore. 7 seconds of HD, compared to the built-in record-ahead buffer of the HVX-200 which will give you only 3 seconds.
The downside of the Firestore is susceptability to vibration. I had it fail on me during an aerial shoot, and I had no idea of how bad it was until after we got back on the ground. Fortunately it was acting up during the flight, and I started shooting on a P2 card as backup.
It also takes 20 seconds to power-up the Firestore. You can’t shut it down to conserve battery power if you’re dealing with a situation where things can happen at a moment’s notice. Whereas an HVX with a P2 card will get going in a few seconds. Fortunately the large Firestore battery will power it for five hours. Get two batteries and it’ll probably outlast the shooter 🙂
With the Firestore I’m constantly concerned about the Firewire connection and whether the camera is actually recording to the device. I’ve had a number of occasions where I either couldn’t get it to stop recording or get it to start. The quick fix was to power down the HVX and power it back up.
If you can deal with card swaps but need to keep things compact and reliable, then it’s the P2 card. P2 cards don’t require extra power, unless you’re using a P2 Store. The P2 Store shares the same battery as the HVX-200 and will power itself down when not in use. But you’ll have to be able to keep track of whether a card has been downloaded and if it’s ready to be re-formatted and re-used.
And, of course, there’s the cost of P2 cards along with the P2 Store.
Two other concerns I encountered with the Firestore:
— It emits substantial RF noise that gets picked up by my ATW-101 wireless system if I have all the units assembled as a compact bundle. If I’m running wireless systems along with the Firestore, then either the Firestore or the wireless receivers have to be mounted on my belt, with the other unit on the camera. Not the best configuration for run-and-gun.
— If shooting in weather, it has to be protected but without obstructing the vents or access to the controls. With the Firestore on the back of a shoulder mount, I covered it loosely with a large Ziplock bag and was able to shoot in the rain without any problems.
Dean Sensui — Imagination Media Hawaii
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I have 2 8gigs and the p2 Store.
I am very happy with the work flow,
It works,
Firestore? I mean what do you gain from that? recording time? I mean is that really is that an issue?
You can’t record 24pn!
Additional weight, additional battery, additional noise. and you gain the abilty to shoot longer.
For me it was a simple choice, as I shoot in 24pn.
If you were going to be shooting 1080 and in a studio sitcom environment. Then I would get the firestore.
I just would worry about the firewire snapping off using the camera anywhere else.
Good luck. -
Dean Sensui wrote:
“Fortunately it was acting up during the flight, and I started shooting on a P2 card as backup.”
This should tell you everything you need to know – the FS100 didn’t work, but the P2 did.
When i got my HVX, I was planning to buy a Firestore, but they were on backorder so long I bought P2 cards, Boy am I glad. They work great, with none of the stupid issues that have emerged from using the firestore (like having to prep the media before ingest, remove redundant frames, etc).
And how does one do confidence monitoring using a firestore? It only has Firewire out. But if you can find a firewire monitor or 1394>video converter box with standard field monitor, this is more equip to lug around, just because I didn’t want to go P2.
Using a laptop with P2 Genie as production support has been flawless and easy. 24pn (not supported by FS100) is a deal maker for the P2, and if you need long record time, you can either A) connect the HVX to the laptop via firewire and use DVRack to record SD or HD on the hard drive (I love DVrack, btw, because you also get a large monitor out of the deal), or 2) use an SD DV Deck and record by firewire. I did that shooting in DV anamorphic and it worked great.
The FS100 is expensive for the problems it has ($1900), and for my money I get more bang with 1 P2 card ($550), new laptop ($700), P2 Genie ($35) and DVRackHD ($800). Things are even better with more cards.
Also, I like the 4GB cards because their size means I can record the full length of them right onto single layer DVD for archiving.
Using P2 just requires a film production workflow – think of it like having to change magazines.
Good luck in your choice!
HarryD
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I have to echo the sentiments of those who have run into trouble using the Firestore. We’ve had two of them for a long time, and we have dealt with a large number of problems. On the onset, they’re bulky. They make noise. They take too long to fire up, and there is a lot that can and has gone wrong.
Physical connection is a huge concern. The firewire connector is not strong at all on the HVX200. We’ve had a couple problems there.
The ability to review clips cannot even begin to compare with the freedom you have with P2. Comparably, the Firestore’s review process is clunky. It does not utilize thumbnails in the camera, so it’s harder to get around.
Out of our two Firestore units, we have made four product returns. Of our two, one has worked fairly well and the other has been an absolute nightmare, even with the same settings. We’ve kept them upgraded with the latest firmware. Both of our units have resulted in corrupt files in the respect that Final Cut Pro rejects roughly 1 out of 30 clips. I’m told that this should no longer be a problem with the new firmware upgrades, but honestly we feel quite misled by things we’ve been told by the manufacturer in the history of this product. They’re nice folks, but their marketing has exceeded the real-world performance of this product. It’s also diffiuclt to get a hold of tech support at Focus Enhancements.
I fully acknowledge that there are people out there using their Firestore units without any problem whatsoever. It just seems there is a consistency problem from unit to unit. You don’t want to get dealt a bad one. If you get a good one, you can have some long record times, but you’ll still need to live with it’s size and the possibility that you didn’t actually get a shot you thought you were getting (due to the FCP translation issues we’ve experienced). On our bad unit, every clip has to be rendered in FCP, but the good unit that’s not a problem.
If you’re using this in a professional context, consistency probably means a great deal to you.
We’ve dropped a small fortune on proprietary Firestore batteries, charger and accessories. Be familiar with these costs before you think you just have to buy the Firestore. The standard battery is not nearly sufficient. For each unit, you’ll need a high capacity battery ($200) and a charger ($180) and most likely a mount kit ($?). In the end, it was not worth it. Then, you’ll need to learn how to safely remove the battery and not allow other untrained wouldbe battery removers to touch it. The connectors are fragile, and a bad battery removal can completely render the unit useless.
We are now increasing our fleet of P2 cards and retiring our Firestores to last string. We could not be happier with the camera or the P2 cards. The cards are simply amazing in their performce. Not one problem in all of our use.
I was an advocate of the Firestore early on. We made a substantial investment in it. We wish it would have worked. In our particular set of experiences, it did not. I’m glad to hear for some it has. In our appeals, Panasonic has not stood behind the Firestore product like it has the camera and the P2 cards. It seems to be an awkward relationship between the two manufacturers. In our discussions with them, Focus Enhancements is never shy about blaming something on their perceived shortcomings of the HVX200, and Panasonic was unwilling to refund us on a dud of a Firestore. This is counter to any other wonderful interactions we’ve had with Panasonic not concerning the Firestore.
As a previous poster mentioned, do your homework. If you’re still considering a Firestore, rent one and test it fully in your workflow, all the way through post.
Chris
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Dear Chris,
I want to thank you for the detailed and carefully written post you made on the Firestore. I have been pondering the purchase of said machine for some months now and was within days of tripping the switch but your post and a couple of concurring others have convinced me to go the P2 Store route.
I’m sorry to hear you got tagged in the wallet but appreciate you giving me the “heads-up”.
What I think was most useful (and what should be a positive lesson to others) is that you didn’t just spout off that so often heard these days “it’s a piece of s__t” style of useless rhetoric. Your evaluation was very professional and thus of enormous value.Brian FitzGerald
FitzVideo.com -
Brian,
You’re very welcome. I often turn to this forum for this type of information from other users. I know that many of us are intimately tied to the financials of our businesses. Dollars spent in the would-be wrong direction on any product can have a real effect on many of us. I’m grateful for everyone present in this forum sharing ideas, especially those that challenge my own pre-conceived notions or experiences.
All the best in your pursuits,
Chris Elley
Electro-Fish Media LLC
electro-fish.com -
Chris,
That was a well crafted response with great detail and quite possibly the most objective thing I’ve read from someone with so much money invested in something. Everyone owes you thanks for being so honest…
FWIW, we’re all P2 here and quite happy. Started with the laptop approach and have since gotten a P2 store, since it can function unattended.
When an HD recorder connects to the P2 slot, is completely transparent and acts like a giant P2 card, with no restrictions, then we’ll buy. Everyone knows the 4-pin firewire port is a part time connector. Thank Sony for that one… the 6-pin Apple developed when they invented firewire is a proper connector. The problem with the Firestore is that is one giant workaround. Read everyone’s posts… they’re contorting everything around the Firestore. IMO, the camera is the big dog and the HD recorder needs to accomodate itself to the cameras way of functioning…
Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.comApple Certified Trainer: Final Cut Pro 5
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Yes, Chris, Kudos to you. This is the seminal commentary on the Firestore, and if I ever had thought of getting one of these devices, I would hope to read this first.
Thanks,
HarryD
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