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Best Mac software/settings for 53 minute DVD encode.
Hello, and thanks in advance for any and all help the community can give me.
(If I am in the wrong forum, either please tell me, and I will repost, or move it to the forum where you think it belongs.)First of all I am a Mac user, running 10.6.3, and using Final Cut Studio 3.
I am using a dual, quad core MacPro with 14Gb of memory.I have a 53 minute 720p documentary I shot in Haiti, and need to author DVD’s (DV-NTSC), for film festival submissions. At this stage I am not looking for any kind of fancy menus, just the best quality for the main title.
But so far, I am very unhappy with the way the footage looks once compressed to mpeg-2.As it is only 53 minutes, according to everything I’ve learned, I can apply the maximum bit rate of 9-Mbps to it.
The project was edited in Final Cut Pro, (FCP), on a Apple Pro Res 422 timeline.
I’ve tried creating the mpeg-2’s at maximum bit rates in various ways.I’ve tried sending it from the FCP timeline to Compressor, and making a custom, high bit rate setting, (as it doesn’t offer one.)
I’ve used DVD Studio Pro (DVDSP), after exporting the project from FCP as a Apple Pro Res mov.
And, I’ve tried using Toast Titanium, (TT). again with the exported Apple Pro Res mov as the starting point.Again, I am not happy with the results of any of them. Way too much artifacting and stair stepping on edges, in particular horizontal and vertical lines. And just in general pixelation.
Granted, I am then watching it on a 1080p television, (it might look pretty good on an old school DV-NTSC TV), but blown up on a large screen TV is probably how it will end up getting viewed, in most situations anyway.
So I have a few questions and am open to any suggestions.
First if you can apply the maximum bit rate anyway, are you better off choosing a constant, higher, bit rate (CBR), with a single pass, or a variable bit rate, (with the accompanying range, and lower minimum), with a double pass?
Second, are there any other, better, pro-sumer, authoring applications, that will export an mpeg-2, that I would be much happier with? (I am assuming that if it was ever picked up for any kind of distribution, it would get professional encoding, and would look 100% better?)
Or, because I, (assume I), can’t afford professional encoding, am I stuck with the options I already have?
And, if so, which of those options, that I have mentioned above, is considered to be the best one?
Thanks again.
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23 Replies
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You made 2 mistakes. First dont set your bitrates to the max. DVD has a maximum bitrate of 9.8 for video. Many encoders will spike over this if your not careful. Plus many DVD players will have troubles playing burned discs with 8+ settings. Second, you want to encode in Compressor, not DVDSP. It will offer more control and a better encode since Compressor’s compression Algorithms are more advanced than QTs encoding engine (which is what DVDSP uses).
I would export out your timeline as a ProRes 422 720×480 16×9 Anamorphic QT. Drop this into Compressor and Set your bitrate at CBR @ 7.2 mb/s and see if you like the results. There are other encoders such as BitVice and Cinemacraft which do a better job, especially at lower bitrates.
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Thanks Eric for your reply.
I will try your suggestions. Though I am not clear on one part.I am not sure this matters, but as I wrote the timeline is 720p, ProRes 422.
You wrote, “export out your timeline as a ProRes 422 720×480 16×9 Anamorphic QT.”
I have been exporting with the current, (HD), settings and then letting compressor downscale to the smaller, NTSC aspect ratio, while it encodes to mpeg-2.For export, in FCP I do not see the exact option you mention, but I am assuming you mean the setting for:
Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) NTSC 48 kHz AnamorphicIs it generally preferable to downsize the aspect ration out of FCP, rather than let Compressor do that part as well as the mpeg-2 encoding? Does it matter?
So I will then try your suggestions, at the CBR of 7.2 Mbs.
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Maybe others can comment on Compressors ability to Down Convert. This could also be your problem area. Ive never used it for that. I will only feed an encoder a 720×480 uncompressed QT.
In FCP you would go to QT conversion and export out your new QT – make sure its 16×9 anamorphic.
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At this point, I am not so sure that there is a best way to down convert.
Because so far, from this experience in the end results, I can’t see any visual difference in quality between the two m2v Compressor encodes I made:
One, from a QT reference movie, (at Current Settings, 720p); and,
Two, the Anamorphic version that I exported from FCP, (as per your instructions.)
And, both of them wanted natively to play squished, (vertically), on my old DVD player, upscaled to a 1080p HDTV.
I had to make the “picture size” adjustment on the HDTV to see the correct aspect ratio. (This surprised me.) Perhaps the Anamorphic setting would only come into play when seen with a 4:3 TV?
The only difference was the time. It took five minutes to export the Current Settings reference mov, from FCP, and 90 minutes to get the downscaled one.I should ask you too, I have been muxing the m2v’s using DVDSP. Does this matter? Is DVDSP not a good muxer?
Also, sticking to the lower bit rate did improve playback, as there was no more stutter, (thank you very much), but I am still not so happy with the general look of the video after the encoding. I am taking into account that I am downgrading from 720p, but I have seen, (albeit), commercial DVD’s that are double my videos length, that look far better than my output.
So then, without pro compression tools, is having a DVD version that looks really good simply out of my reach? I would have thought that would apply for sure with a two hour video, but I figured that with a 53 minute video, I would be able to output far more professional results.
Now as to the two other encoders you mentioned, Bitvice goes for <$200.00, while Cinema Craft goes for $795.00. Big difference, but less than what I would have thought actually. Do you have experience with either of these? In your opinion, are they about equivalent in output quality? I might find the money if I thought it would make a major difference. But I would be highly bummed if the difference wasn’t that stark.
Thanks again for all your advice.
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DVDSPs muxing engine is fine. This has nothing to do with the quality of your stream, it only gathers all the assets and bundles them into the appropriate files that players read.
Are you encoding progressive? Your FCP time line is 23.98 correct? It hard to say since I cant see what youre looking at. I’m not sure if your workflow has an error or you’re being overly optimistic 🙂 Can you post some screen shots of the problem areas?
You wont see a dramatic improvement when using Bitvice or Cinemcraft. They are much better at lower bitrates though which is why I abandoned Compressor years ago. These are just Mac examples too. I use the PC version of Cinemacraft SP v2. When I was working for the Studios we used the Xtream version which cost upwards of $75K so dont think Hollywood is using $500 tools. 🙂 Many streams come from 2k or 4k files and are correctly down converted and color corrected.
Your timeline should be 1280 X 1080, 23.98. (or30p). Use this to down convert to a 720×480 16×9 Anamorphic export and encode.
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I will put together a couple of screen shots and post them along with my settings tomorrow morning.
Thanks again so much for all your help…
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Hi Richard,
Another option to consider, though it certainly isn’t free. Bring your movie to a post/finishing house that can do a hardware down-conversion for you. Though you will, of course, pay a fee, you can end up with two things. First, the digi-beta master necessary for submission to many festivals/broadcast. Second, have them create an 8-bit uncompressed anamorphic file for you, which you can compress to mpeg2. This way, you won’t be paying the enormous cost of professional authoring, but the hardware downconversion will make the difference in aliasing/edging that you are noticing.
If you need a hand with specific machinery to request or houses which can do the conversion, let me know.
-joe
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Hi Joe,
Thanks for jumping in. I doubt at the moment that we can afford to use a finishing house. It’s a documentary covering a small groups relief efforts, I shot in Haiti right after the quake, and there is basically no money in it, at the moment. A labor of love, if you will.
But, can you tell me approximately what I could expect to pay for the services you mentioned on a 53 minute video?Also, Eric, Joe et al,
(Getting this all together took longer than I thought it would!)
As the screenshots are large, I am uploading them through imageshack. Once the page loads, click them to enlarge for the full size. (Before I took the screenshots, I blew them up to full screen on my 1080p monitor, as that is how they will likely be upscaled on a viewer/judges 1080p HDTV.)It seems as though the real problem may be more with movement, than anything. More on that below.
After preparing these screen shots, it seems that except for the “stat cards,” where I really wanted to use red, or yellow in the fonts, (see Fig. 1 https://img808.imageshack.us/img808/4928/statisticsheetcompared.jpg), for the most part the video stills from the m2v look like they have a reasonable reduction in quality, compared to the original QT video files. (See Fig. 2 https://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8974/scottscreenshot.jpg)
Please let me know if you think I could get more out of this encode.However, it is becoming very clear to me that the really big problem is more in the playback, with moire patterns flickering badly on tracking shots that have horizontal lines in particular, that make the dvd version look so grievous. (See Fig. 3 https://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5862/badmoirepatternsinmovem.jpg)
And this is particularly grievous when watching the dvd on a 46″ 1080p HDTV through a DVD player. Also, this moire-ing (if that is the right name for it), doesn’t appear as bad when the dvd is played using Apples DVD player, or VLC on my 1080p, 24″ Samsung monitor that I use with my computer.
Would it be helpful if I make and upload both a: TS FOLDER; and the comparable QT mov, of this moire-ing clip? Again, thank you so much for your time…
It is really all this flickering, (that you can’t see from a still), that is so utterly distracting, that just takes the viewer away from the images and story. At this point, I can certainly live with any other hit in the quality.
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You need to give us the info on you what your editing. Go to to original timeline and give use codec, frame size, timecode, ect. A small TS folder plus a QT uploaded somewhere would be huge!
E
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Thanks again Eric, and the journey continues…
First, do you think that the actual dip in quality, as per the screen shots I uploaded before, is an acceptable loss?
Now the details. The footage was shot in AVCHD lite. FCP doesn’t play nice with this format so it has to be converted. So, following the advice at the time, it was imported in FCP 7 as, Apple Pro Res 422, through, “Log and Transfer.” I then dropped one of the imported clips onto the default sequence and clicked “YES,” when I received this prompt.
FCP would now change the projects sequence settings, (I think my previous default sequence setting was for DV-NTSC), appropriately for the transferred clips.
Here is the Sequence Settings:
So, I worked with these settings, and as I reported before when exporting, used “Current Settings,” leaving unchecked, “Make Movie Self Contained.”
Then, I imported that file into Compressor, and, (thank you), used these settings, and submitted it to my local Cluster:
As I wrote in my most-lengthy last post with screen shots, the picture degradation has become the least of my problems as this flickering/moire-ing, (what would be the correct term?), in the windows with the slats, is now far more grievous than anything else.
The video begins with a 2 minute, hand held, (I know that can’t be helpful), tracking shot down a particularly devastated street in Port-au-Prince, set to a beautiful original soundtrack. This opening shot really sets the whole tone for the piece. As it just goes on and on, it drops the viewer in to the closest thing they will experience to what it feels like being there. (At least that is what I’ve been told!) With this crazy flickering happening in the shot, it just ruins the whole effect of being transported in.
I should mention that when I first started this thread, (thinking it was the apparent quality loss in the DVD version that was most distressing), this flickering, or moire-ing, [what’s the right word?], didn’t look so awful played through Apple’s DVD Player or VLC on my Mac’s 24″ 1080p monitor. It wasn’t until I actually burned it to disk and played it on a 46″ HDTV that it looked absolutely horrendous. It could be that this was just a combination of one DVD player and one HDTV, but I can’t rest on Hope. It will be a real bummer if it can’t be fixed.
I know I am a broken record, at this point, but once again, thank you so much again for your help. So, I will now export a short clip of the opening tracking sequence as a self contained movie at the current settings, Apple Pro Res 422, and then encode that to m2v using the same settings as above with Compressor, mux that into a TS Folder with DVDSP, zip them both up, upload to a file sharing site, and post the link.
So, you may have to watch the TS Folder played on both a big screen HDTV, as well as a computer monitor, to see this play out. I will get this uploaded tonight…
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