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Need some tips on using Behringer Shark to fight feedback
We have a portable PA system that goes out to events all over the place, a different venue or location every time. A large number of the locations are not great acoustically, they are reverberant, and it is hard to crank in enough gain on the speakers to be heard, even with proper mic papcement, yet avoid getting ringing feedback sneaking in.
We are looking at a purchase of a Behringer Shark 1100 0r 1124 to try and kill all the feedback, and currently have aquired their model DSP-110 to play around with the concept of active feedback canceling. However, our engineer is not expert in the field of acoustics and is kind of stumped by how to use it, and then how to train some cameraman or casual borrower of the PA to also use the unit properly. We have the instruction manual but results are so far not what we hoped for. Seems like its not doing anything at all.
So, before spending on the 1100 or 1124, any good tips or techniques to apply this DSP-110 unit to the PA efficiently? Or is there a better device for this out there that is affordable? The keys are economy and ease of use.
Thanks for any ideas or suggestions.
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14 Replies
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I’m not usually one to trash a product, and I haven’t used any Behringer products in years. The reason I haven’t used their products in years is that Behringer gear is garbage. Not one self-respecting professional would use a Behringer product, even if you put a gun to their head. They are poorly made and sound terrible. They are aimed at high school wannabees who forego their pot money for a week.
There are a few products that will “automatically” suppress feedback, but it still requires some set-up time and some audio knowledge. Shure and Sabine make products that do a decent job, but the run in the $300 to $600 range.
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Thanks Bob for the quick “feedback” :-), got any model numbers you think we should look at?
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Feedback Fighters are not the cure-all to feedback that they are popularly marketed to be. Any good ones will have different types of filters that can be set to certain frequencies that always feedback versus filters that adapt to the frequencies that pop up in different venues, temperatures, etc.
First and foremost: we need more information. What are you doing with your system – talking head gigs, bands…??? Next, give us a list of the gear that you are using. Make sure you tell us the exact order in which everything is hooked up, too, so we can analyze any problems there, as well.
Next, you need to identify the actual problem. You see, feedback is not the problem – it is a symptom of a problem. Often times, feedback cannot be corrected by EQ because it is not an amplitude issue, it is a phase/time-domain issue. By properly orienting the main speakers and microphones to each other, in BOTH space and time, you can achieve better Gain-Before-Feedback.
Without knowing any more information than you have given us, my first recommendation is to check your speaker placement. You’ve tried mic placement, but have you tried moving the main speakers?
More to come…
Wolf
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The system is very basic: a directional dynamic mic on a stand, generally no mixer, then 2 Peavy amplified speakers (basically portable guitar amps) in the 50-watt range, or a single powered speaker in the 100-watt range, placed so the mic is “behind” the speakers in the z-axis and the stage plane. We’re hoping to replace these bits of kit with a Fender Passport of apropriate wattage some day, but for now, this is what we have on hand to make-do with.
The pair of speakers generally flank the podium set at 45 degree angles to “wash” the crowd, and can go up on stands or stay on the floor, depends on many variables as to which we choose at every occasion. Every time the system goes out on location, its a different venue; sometimes outdoor, sometimes indoor, small, hard-walled granite atriums, large warehosues or airplane hangars, and everything in-between… playing to a crowd of 25-50 people, sometimes seated, sometimes not.
It is just speaker support for press conferences, no music stuff. Very vanilla. A separate mic feeds a mult box for direct press access, with nointeractions with the PA.
The single cameraman we send out sets it all up after he’s placed his camera and tripod and lights, so we want to keep things light, simple, and easy to handle. When we crank up speaker volume a little past one-third of capacity, feedback starts to creep in, first with just some ringing, then the full squeal if we don’t cut back a little. This is where we would like to add an automated component just to cancel or suppress feedback, so we can open up the speakers to higher power level and not blow everyone’s ears off with howling feedback. Our engineer found a deal on the Shark, so he’s trying it for grins and giggles, but not getting dramatic improvement. So, what to do, and what to get? (under a grand).
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Alright Mark, I think that at this point, a dedicated sound reinforcement forum would be the best place to go.
Check out ProSoundWeb’s Sound Reinforcement forum, the “LAB Lounge“. You have to log in to post, but I guarantee (1) you will NEVER receive spam from them and (2) it is the best place on the Internet to talk sound reinforcement. MAKE SURE YOU USE YOUR REAL NAME!!!
You’ll get the answers you need to hear, though they may not be what you WANT to hear. Take it all in and think it over before responding.
Wolf
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Hello Mark and welcome to the Cow Audio Forum.
The solution to problems is not always more toys.
If the problem always happens, regardless of location, it’s the tools or the operator.
Feedback happens when volume of the system increases enough to reenter the system.
It’s that simple. Given your comments, questions that beg to be asked are:1. Is the mic really a directional mic? What make and model?
2. How close is the mic worked when someone speaks into it?
3. Is only one mic used?
Regards,
Ty Ford
Want better production audio?: Ty Ford’s Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Watch Ty play guitar -
It’s the directional version of the venerable Electro-Voice “hammer”. I don’t have one in front of me right now so can’t give you a serial number.
The mic is worked at what I call “normal” distance, which I guage by spreading my fingers in the Hawaiian “hang loose” symbol, and using that distance from thump to pinkie to gauge mouth-to-mic distance. -
Every time you half the distance between the sound source and the microphone, you gain a free 6dB of SPL. It’s called the Inverse Square Law and it’s a wonderful thing. All that to say: keep your sources as close to the mics as possible and correct with EQ when necessary for proximity effect (the increase in low frequencies as you get closer to the microphone diaphragm).
I still highly recommend posting on PSW. Hope to see you there.
Wolf
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Here’s the thing: these are press events, not theatrical ones, so I have absolutely zero control over how each person steps up to the mic and uses it, and I don’t have a black-clad stage hand standing by to adjust a boom or stand for each person that speaks. Coaching them does not help, and often is impossible to do. The mouth to mic distance I selected is, I feel, the best compromise between getting too close, and thus dealing with a lot of plosive b’s and p’s, and being too far off mic. This is live ENG news gathering; it’s a totally different head from musical or theatrical work. You don’t dictate terms to the users; you adapt to whatever they throw at you.
So, considering the relative simplicity of the setup, what if anything can I do using the Shark or other device to actively cancel feedback in these very fluid situations?
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Mark, I understand completely what you’re going through here. You will never get the various speakers to use the microphone properly. First, forget the Shark. Also, don’t expect any great improvement from the Fender Passport. While it’s a great little rig for performers in small venues, it won’t get you anywhere with this problem. In the short term, move your mic. in line next to the speaker, neither in front nor behind, and as far from the speaker as possible. There’s a bit of a dead zone there that should help delay feedback a bit. A better long term/cost-effective solution is to forget the self-powered speakers, as they lack any effective eq and look at some of the powered mixers from Peavey or Mackie, and one or two unpowered speakers. You’ll probably need to up the budget, but setup will be very easy and you will gain a quantum leap in control over the audio. Placing this “pa head” next to your videographer will give him/her easy access to the eq and other controls to quickly and easily fix issues as they arise. Good luck.
Joel Servetz
RGB Media Services, LLC
Sarasota, Fl
videobyjoel@aol.com
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