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recording a live gig?
Hello everyone..
I’m currently making a doco on a music group in Australia. I’m using a Sony Fx1e HDV camera and since it has no XLR inputs i am recording audio seperately on a marantz pmd660, and a Rode NTG2 microphone.
The music group is performing at big night clubs and i am filming them. I’m recording the show using the marantz with either an XLR input, but more often just a line input, L+R out of the desk into my line input. The problem is i can’t get a good recording at all, it just distorts etc. I put the level extremely low and it sounds ok but on an louder part/bassy part it just distorts. Don’t know what else to do. Quite often its all thats available from the desk as an output, or at least the d.j or engineer tells me anyway.
Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated..
Thanks
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19 Replies
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Hello NIcholas,
Somewhere in the bowels of the FX1 is a software switch for mic or line.
I’m guessing your camera is set to mic and the console feed is set to line. There is a third level, prosumer, that is between the -40 dB of mic and the 0 of line. Prosumer is -10 dB.
You need to find out what’s feeding what and adjust accordingly. That’s your first problem. Your second problem is that using just a board recording will not sound right because you are only hearing the miced and direct sounds, without the sound of the room/club.
Here’s a youtube clip I shot and recorded. I used a combination of the board mix and the camera mic. The camera mic picks up the sound of the room, the overall sound. The board mix let’s you hear the detail.
This is still a compromise, but it works OK. Not great, but OK. In the real world, you’d have a multi-track recorder with enough tracks for the entire band and some room/audience mics. You’d shoot and record and then do a mix later in a proper studio environment. They took my advice and did that for the Subdudes new DVD. https://www.biographicadocs.com/featurefilms_3.html
I haven’t heard the DVD yet, but the band is happy with the mix.
Just added to this post: Here’s a clip from the DVD. I only did the interview audio on this clip. The music is from their CD and the unplugged music room set. That set only used three mics. Two TLM 103 at a distance and a 414 closer for the main vocals. Not ideal, but for a casual unplugged set, it works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH-u9e_7DPM
Regards,
Ty Ford
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Hi Ty, thanks for your response, appreciate it.
I’m a little confused..As far as my camera, i’m not connecting it to the live desk at all, just recording completely seperately the audio with the marantz connected to the desk. I set the marantz pmd660 for a line feed in its menu.
I know exactly what you mean with getting natural room noise of the crowd etc, which is missed in the live desk feed. But the on camera mic just can’t seem to handle the level, even when i turn the record level as low as possible, it cant handle the heavy bass etc from the live gig (super loud club music).
Is the first youtube clip you mentioned address there? I saw the other one, but wasn’t the one you were reffering to above was it?
What is the best solution here?
Nick.
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Hello Nicholas,
I think you need to figure out how to get the audio from the desk into your recorder without distorting. Pick another output and see if that works. Line and mic levels are standard. As I metioned, the -10 is in between. Maybe your recorder isn’t really pro line level, maybe it’s -10.
The camera audio would also be helpful to fill in the sound. Here, you need to figure out how to pad the level down so it doesn’t distort.
Sounds like you’re doing the right things. I know it’s frustrating, but this is sort of difficult to fix from across the Internet.
Regards,
Ty Ford
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Thanks again Ty,
Is there any way at all to pad the camera sound? Could i do something like put foam etc over the FX1e’s microphone?
I bought the marantzpmd660 because i thought it was a proffesional unit that can do the job well..maybe its not. What would be a better option if i had to buy again?
All things considered, what is the best type of source from a live desk? A XLR mic input or a rca line? I have a pad for a mic input and the marantz has an -20db cut option..
Thank you again
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[Nicholas Canavan] “Thanks again Ty,
Is there any way at all to pad the camera sound? Could i do something like put foam etc over the FX1e’s microphone?
>>>Hey Nick, a and might seem to be something like that, but it’s actually a resistance that gets put in line with the signal to knock it down some. Now that we’ve been talking about it for a while, it occurs to me that this happened on a shoot I was doing sound for this past summer. On this occasion, we were on a facility where they reconditioned APCs (Armored Personnel Carriers) for the Army. The shooter wanted to get in the turret and shoot while the tank was in motion. Space was an issue, so he went alone. Before he left he said the camera mic levels were pegging and handed me his camera. (Note: His camera.) I could find no adjustments to reduce the mic sensitivity. He said, “This is a frequently used model of camera. You should know the menus!.” Because I was working on contract though another entity, I decided not to respond with, “It’s YOUR camera, and you don’t know the menus!?”
>>>At lunch I suggested we take another look. He spun through the menus and we never did find any adjustments. The APC was just too loud for the camera mics. In retrospect, I could have connected my Sound Devices mixer to the camera and we would have been OK because it has THAT amount of control. Bottom line: camera mics are designed to work over a range of sound pressure. The environment you’re in is above that range.
I bought the marantzpmd660 because i thought it was a proffesional unit that can do the job well..maybe its not. What would be a better option if i had to buy again?
>>>I see Oade has some suggestions for the 660 that you may not have gotten around to googling:
https://www.oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/PMD-660MODS.htmlI like the Sound Devices recorders and mixers.
All things considered, what is the best type of source from a live desk? A XLR mic input or a rca line? I have a pad for a mic input and the marantz has an -20db cut option..
>>>Again, you’re talking about connectors and not the levels themselves. The connectors are just plumbing. It’s the signal on them that counts. Take the XLR. It could be mic or line level balanced audio or unbalanced stereo at any level you can imagine. You just have to deal with it when you show up. If it’s a critical gig. Hire a location audio sound person with some experience in live sound hook ups. They usually have a box of converters and pads to fit a variety of occasions.
Typically, you want a signal that won’t change in level. If you don’t, you may start the night with a good signal, but if the desk operator begins to push the system, there, go your levels. So what you want to get is a pre-fader mix. That means a mix of the audio before it hits the faders ( that he/she may be adjusting). Not all desks give you that. Not all operators know how to give you that.
Regards,
Ty Ford
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Hey Nicholas,
Do you know what the source was from the board? Was it a monitor mix or REC out? Sometimes the line that you get from the board has a gain on it as well. Did you listen to the signal with headphones connected to the marantz? It might be that yur signal in was too hot, possibly with the lin vs. mic levels like Ty talked about above but it could have been an over driven signal that could have simply had it’s gain lowered while you were monitoring the signal. Next time, the simplest connection would be RCA out of the REC (this is meant to send a signal to an external recorder) out to mini line in to the marantz.
But, a tough lesson, ALWAYS listen to the signal you are recording and make adjustments.
Jeff
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Thanks for your continued support Ty,
That story you mentioned above seems like the exact same thing..basically just too damn loud.
The Oade brothers thing i have seen, but being in Australia they won’t deal with me unfortunately.
I now know what you mean as far as XLR or rca etc being just plumbing, its the level that is set before it even gets into my marantz that is the problem, hence like you said, getting a pre-fader mix. And yes your 100% correct, some desks ive encountered havn’t got that level of control, and some operators don’t know how.
So assuming that some of the time the marantz just wont cut it for a live desk feed, could i get decent sound with 2 mics toward the back of the room connected to the marantz ??
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Hey Jeff, thanks for the response..
Not sure on the latest occasion if it was a rec out or monitor mix. Sometimes im dealing with a dj who doesnt seem to knowledgable on the desk etc.
My main problem is that at the club, its just way too loud to hear a thing through my headphones when connected to the marantz to test the levels. I have to record 20 seconds, then leave the club, (which takes 10 mins with the crowd) to listen to what ive recorded to see how the level is…
So best to look if there is one for a rec out level which can control the output specific to my marantz?
Thanks again
Nicholas. -
[Nicholas Canavan] “I now know what you mean as far as XLR or rca etc being just plumbing,”
Just say the word and I can go into detail and explain the difference between balanced and unbalanced audio (RCA vs XLR).
Ray Palmer, Engineer
Salt River Project
Phoenix, AZ
602-236-8224 office
There are three types of people in this world, those that can count and those that can’t. -
NIck,
Maybe with a pair of less sensitive mics you’d be OK, but PA sound is pretty wonky. How important is the music? Is it just part of the scene or is this a music video? I forget. Are there live instruments or is this just recorded music coming from the PA?
The times I’ve worked in a room, I’ll take a board feed to my Sound Devices 442 mixer. It has mic or line inputs and enough gain stages so that I haven’t yet been jammed by the audio from the console. I then feed that to my camera. So the mixer is my magic bullet and I am listening All The Time.
Regards,
Ty Ford
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