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Weird Exporting/Playback Issues – Look At The Snapshots!
Has anybody experienced such an issue:
After rendering out a video file with CineForm, DNxHD or other codecs, there is always a huge difference when playing the rendered video file back on different players. For example, just take a look at the attached snapshots below: the 1st is with Windows Media Player and other players; the 2nd is with QuickTime Player. As you can see, the video from QTP looks exactly as edited and graded before rendering out, while the same video from WMP and other players gets highlights overblown and other destructive effects. Is that normal, how to fix this problem? When I put the same (rendered) video file on Sony Vegas or AE timeline, it looks properly as it is and as QTP shows it. Re-rendering this already rendered video file with various codecs and settings goes to the same issues. The same issue I experience with video files converted with 5D2RGB – QTP shows it properly with the 1.8 gamma lifted up, while WMP and the other players show exactly zero difference from the source MTS video file. So, why does this happen? Any idea why the video editors display the video properly and then the other players don’t?
Another issue: the WMP snapshot is vertically stretched a little, don’t know why and this appears on the TV too as well as the destroyed highlights and other defects; while the QTP snapshot looks exactly as it should. I’m shocked!!! Any help and suggestions? Thanks in advance!
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9 Replies
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If I am waaaay off-beam with my answers to your question, I’ll apologies here and now.
OK, you have a real mix of workflow, I’ve no issue with that, however what you have discovered is that at some point in this workflow 2 things have happened that you weren’t expecting:
1/- Luminance Levels changed.
2/- PAR to changed.
Well, somewhere amongst your workflow they have. This is not necessarily just a User error that can be corrected by a directing piece of advise, but would need a thorough almost restart to get a handle on just what is happening.
Thanks for providing the samples, this helped. But it isn’t clear what were before and what were after and at what part of the workflow you took them. However, it was enough for me to show you the Levels issue using the Scopes in Vegas.
LEVELS not applied:
LEVELS applied:
Several things going on here.
i] Not all cameras deliver the same Levels and in the Studio RGB that we do in Vegas.
ii] Players that can’t register the PAR you/we/I set – WMP – will do awful things to the shape of stuff.
iii] The DI that you;ve passed your footage through could very well have introduce another level of misinformation for you!
My opinion? Start over and firstly make ALL your media comply with what you want: Levels and PAR. Determine WHERE your work is going to be seen and be sure you are getting what YOU want from that final render.
Finally? Make sure your own Monitors are set to accept either the Studio RGB or Computer RGB and adapt your awareness to that. As long as you know what you SHOULD be seeing is correct then you have a start and finsh point of monitoring you can be aware of.
Grazie
Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge -
Thanks, Graham, but I think applying the Level correction is not solving the issues. You don’t need scopes to see the differences in highlights, details and stretched ratio.
As you can see, the aspect ratio is also stretched vertically – very weird!!!
If the problem was only in my system – ok, but it’s the same on the TV, exactly the same!
Why QuickTime player does it properly and all the others don’t?
Also, another hint: sometimes I download and watch on my TV (via USB flash) videos from YouTube, Vimeo, etc. and they look properly on both my players and TV. What would you say about that?And what is PAR?
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Another screenshot of a video file converted to ProRes, you can see that again QuickTime player shows it most properly.
Here the players again stretch vertically the resolution and the aspect ratio a little, while QuickTime Player does it without any issues. And once put on the timeline of Sony Vegas or AE and exported with various codecs and settings after the edit and grading are done, the issue from the first post appear.
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[Plamen Petrov] “What would you say about that?”
I’d say that what you are looking at had been rendered to take into account the Server it was coming back from for you to view. There’s no mystery to all this, maybe “misery”:-A > B>> B renders for ongoing publication >> C
PAR = Pixel Aspect Ration – The SHAPE of the pixel itself. Not all are 1:1, meaning square. By the time Media comes into Vegas it will depend on how the Projects is set; if the Media is allowed to change for Render and what format the rest of the Media is running.
I need Scopes to identify how much levels are outta whack and convey to others.
Cheers
Grazie
Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge -
[Plamen Petrov] “Thanks, Graham, but I think applying the Level correction is not solving the issues. You don’t need scopes to see the differences in highlights, details and stretched ratio.”
Yes, but you DO need scopes to get it right the first time. Have you used your Video Scopes and Levels FX to bring your original footage into compliance between 0 and 100 as Graham showed? If not, you are seeing the difference between how various codecs and players handle out of compliance video. The fix is to make sure that your video uses legal levels before feeding it to a codec for rendering.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
[John Rofrano] ” The fix is to make sure that your video uses legal levels before feeding it to a codec for rendering.”And this way you have got a FIXED datum > 0 to 100 < to then argue against, otherwise you’re blaming the CODECS for doing the alteration, when what you need to do is get the job done. Start with your levels within the parameters, then render, then see IF you get the results you say.
Cheers
Grazie
Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge -
So, what you’re saying, guys, is that the preview windows of Sony Vegas, AE, PP, etc. always lie?!?
Another question: why do the issues appear on the TV same as in PC players (except QT) when the TV is 16-235 and the players – 0-255? Why when QT player displays 16-235 somehow, the TV doesn’t display it the same proper way?!? When all the players show 0-255 with the issue, then why the TV shows it the same way as if as it (the TV) is 0-255? Confusing, right?
I still think and believe that the problem is in the system, in particular in the codecs.Ok, do I do it right:
Original .MTS (or original file converted to DNxHD or CineForm 4:2:2 or ProRes) —> After Effects, Project Settings 16 (or 32) bits per channel, Working space HDTV (Rec. 709) Simulate Output – HDTV (Rec. 709) —> Render: DNxHD .709 or CineForm 4:2:2. -
[Plamen Petrov] “So, what you’re saying, guys, is that the preview windows of Sony Vegas, AE, PP, etc. always lie?!? “
No, what I’m saying is that video scopes DON’T lie! 😉 Preview windows take all sorts of shortcuts to keep playback frame rates high so yes, preview windows do lie. They are just for “previewing”. You should not be making grading decisions based on a preview window. If you want the truth, use the Windows Secondary Monitor option in Vegas Pro. That can be calibrated to show you what the video really contains, but be careful there too because it has the capability to visually alter the luminance levels and deinterlace so you need to understand what options you have turned on. Also, if you change your project’s pixel format from 8-bit to 32-bit you are in for a lot things not matching.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com
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