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curious… AVC vs. AVCHD?
Hi… rendering a simple Sony HD movie.
If I use the Sony template (instead of Main Concept) for AVCHD I get the option for AVC or AVCHD… can anyone help me understand this difference? (see screenshot). Also while we’re at it – rendering using Sony AVCHD – best to do MPEG2 or MTS? And I am guess – no smart rendering for this? Not a problem, just want to do the best thing for my little movies 🙂
thanks everyone in advance for any tips or suggestions!
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Vegas 11, Win7, Intel i7 w/12GB RAM – In need of a decent SSD, methinks 🙂 Sony TG5V, Kodak Zi8, Playtouch. -
6 Replies
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It’s all about the standards.
“AVC” means Advanced Video Coding… this is also known as H.264, also known as MPEG-4 Part 10. That’s just the video standard, without many bounds on it.
When you select an AVC render, you have a bunch of control over things, but also, some concern about compatibility. Video doesn’t just live by itself on a computer or most media players, it needs to be put in a “file wrapper” and probably multiplexed with audio. Classic computer versions of such wrappers are the Windows AVI file formats or Apple’s quicktime format. For AVC, the typical file wrappers are derived from the MPEG set of standards. These include the MPEG-2 Transport Stream (.ts, .m2t, and .m2ts files) and the MPEG-4 file wrapper (.mp4). You can select a number of these when you do an AVC render. Or you can simply render a “raw” AVC elemental stream, which doesn’t allow any audio to be multiplexed.
AVCHD is a standard that includes AVC, but other things as well. It was originally a simplified version of the Blu-ray standard, to enable DVD and BD-based camcorders, and today it’s of course the most popular camcorder format for consumers (there are a few pro versions as well, such as Panasonic’s AVCCAM). AVCHD specifies AVC bitrates (up to 18Mb/s for video on DVD/BD, up to 24Mb/s for flash-card based video, and up to 28Mb/s for 1080/60p video under the AVCHD 2.0 spec). It also specified MPEG-2 Transport Stream as the only file wrapper, and AC-3 audio as the only audio format. And the Blu-ray derived directory structure, things like that.
So your choice for rendering depends on what it’s for. Vegas has templates for “generic” AVC oriented toward various things (online, devices, Blu-ray, etc), as well as standards-compliant AVCHD options.
-Dave
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thx for detailed explanation, Dave!
as you mention – my choice depends on what it’s for.
As I am an ignorant consumer who knows very little, I am hoping that my final videos will be compatible enough to play on a bluray player in years to come. I don’t actually make the BD disks anymore(too much hassle) but play the files on my popcorn hour, WD TV live or other marginally convenient media players.
I also have one other requirement. That the final videos *could* be editable in the future if I was to ever lose the source files. I am fairly religious about keeping my media together, but who knows when my next moment of insanity will strike and i delete my videos and the backups in one go 🙂
OK so compatibility with “the future” is my big one I think. Not worried about file sizes etc as much. An editable if possible in the future.
cheers !!
aa
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Vegas 11, Win7, Intel i7 w/12GB RAM – In need of a decent SSD, methinks 🙂 Sony TG5V, Kodak Zi8, Playtouch. -
Can I elaborate on my confusion?
Mainconcept vs Sony AVC.
Sony AVC vs. AVCHD vs. MVC etc.Here are the options I get. Sony Vegas 11.
I apoligize, I cannot figure out do I use mainconcept or Sony firstly.
Secondly, (I assume I should use Sony) do I do Blu Ray Sony or AVCHD/AVC sony?And if Blu Ray Sony, do I use AVC, AVCHD or MVC – and if so, they all give me the option to use .avc, mp4 or m2ts.
There are a lot of permutations and my ancient plasma TV is way past its best so to be honest if I was viewing great or moderately good quality I may miss it in the course of my analysis… so any clues appreciated!! thanks
andyRender as…
Render template…
Mainconcept MPEG2
[option] Blu-ray 1920×1080-60i 16mbps video stream
(this gives blanks under all dropdowns if i look in Custom Settings)[option] Blu-ray 1920×1080-60i 25mbps video stream
(this seems like overkill because my source material does not need > 16mbps)Anyway under Customize I get the following options
Output Type – MPEG2Sony AVC/MVC
[option] AVCHD 1920×1080-60i
under customize I get the following optionsVideo Format – AVCHD (only)
FORMAT i get the following options
MPEG2 transport stream (.m2ts)
MP4 file format (.MP4)
Video Elementary Stream (.AVC)[option] Blu-ray 1920×1080-60i 16mbps video stream
under customize I get the following optionsVideo Format –
AVC
Format gives me options
Video Elementary Stream (.avc)
MP4 fileformat (.mp4)
MPEG2 transport stream (.m2ts)
AVCHD
Format gives me options
Video Elementary Stream (.avc)
MP4 fileformat (.mp4)
MPEG2 transport stream (.m2ts)
MVC
Format gives me options
Video Elementary Stream (.avc)
MP4 fileformat (.mp4)
MPEG2 transport stream (.m2ts)———————-
Vegas 11, Win7, Intel i7 w/12GB RAM – In need of a decent SSD, methinks 🙂 Sony TG5V, Kodak Zi8, Playtouch. -
If your main goal is to deliver a disc that’s very compatible with Blu-ray players, your choices are actual Blu-ray, or AVCHD format on a DVD. MPEG-2 is an option, though not a particularly good one, on Blu-ray; AVC is a better choice for Blu-ray in most cases, and the only option for AVCHD.
Blu-ray players do not universally support AVCHD, or even BD-R… yeah, they didn’t fix the problems from the DVD days. But AVCHD is very well supported, simply because it’s also a camcorder format. The disadvantage, technically, is that your AVC encoding must be at 18Mb/s or less for an AVCHD disc (it can go higher if you’re making AVCHD-compatible video for use on other media).
You can’t make a fully AVCHD compliant DVD using the Vegas/DVD Architect tools. The on-disc format is ever-so-slightly different than Blu-ray. DVDA will make a DVD-sized Blu-ray if you want, but that’s less compatible than a true AVCHD disc, even though they’re essentially the same thing.
There’s a freeware utility called multiAVCHD that can generate a compliant AVCHD disc layout. That’s what I would use to create the most compatible high-definition DVD that can be created. The MPEG2-TS streams for AVCHD or Blu-ray are editable in the same way that MPEG2-TS streams from most modern camcorders are editable (eg, works fine if you have a fast PC).
-Dave
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again thanks Dave for your insights!
So to sum up – not worried about DVD format, don’t care especially about creating Blu Ray disks (at this time), just want “popular industry std” files to play on regular, generic media players (but not to preclude future BD…) So this is what i will do from now on. What do you think?
RENDER AS … AVCHD 1920×1080
Customize template – only get AVCHD option. This renders as .m2ts – my source sony files are .mts … am I in a good place?
The rendered video seems ok … this is NOT using BD template – if you follow where i am going with this 🙂 … if I try the Sony BD template this is what happens….
RENDER AS … SONY AVC/MVC
Ok – I will try “Blu Ray, 16mbps”Customize Template –
….WOW something new!! Must be the Build 525 I downloaded yesterday!!I get to chose from
– AVC
– Blu-ray AVC *** NEW***
– AVCHD
– MVCOK I try Blu-Ray AVC. ummm I get no option for audio – greyed out.
that’s a shame.
OK now I try AVC – no audio option either
ok, AVCHD – no audio either
finally MVC – no audio either!!!Ah but If I tab over to SYSTEM – i get FORMAT as a choice.
And I can chose Video Elementary, MP4 or MPEG2 – M2TS.The ONLY one I get the option for audio is M2TS which is as you mention above “MPEG2 is an option though not a particularly good one”
OK therefore – Template Blu Ray no good for me?
Apologies in advance for my rambling incoherent posting 🙂
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Vegas 11, Win7, Intel i7 w/12GB RAM – In need of a decent SSD, methinks 🙂 Sony TG5V, Kodak Zi8, Playtouch. -
[andy abulafia] “Ah but If I tab over to SYSTEM – i get FORMAT as a choice.
And I can chose Video Elementary, MP4 or MPEG2 – M2TS.The ONLY one I get the option for audio is M2TS which is as you mention above “MPEG2 is an option though not a particularly good one””
Remember what I said about the file format vs. the video format. The SYSTEM page is determining the file format. Blu-ray formats default to elementary, which is just video — you can’t store anything else in such a file. So that’s why no audio options are given.
MP4 and M2TS are two different file formats defined by the Motion Picture Experts Group. M2TS (MPEG-2 Transport Stream) came out at the same time as the MPEG-2 video format, but when I was speaking of MPEG-2 not being a great option, that was MPEG-2: The Video Format, not the file container. An MPEG-2 transport stream can contain all sorts of different things. It’s the standard stream/file format used for DVB and ATSC television transmissions, and on-disc for both AVCHD and Blu-ray disc formats. While any audio format can be used, typical system put either MPEG Layer 2 audio or SMPTE AC-3 (aka Dolby Digital) audio in the M2TS wrapper. AVCHD requires only AVC and AC-3 to be used.
The MP4 file format derives from Quicktime, but it’s an independent industry standard. It’s more flexibly structured than MPEG-2 TS, but that doesn’t matter much for simply video use. MP4 is more likely to be supported in small media devices like iPods and mobile phones (though many support both wrapper types), and it’s very supported as an online format. The typical video format in MP4 files these days is AVC (aka, MPEG-4 Part 10), though the simple MPEG-4 Advanced Simple Profile (MPEG-4 Part 2) is also legal. And AAC audio is commonly used.
For playing on a media player like a Sony PS3 (since that’s the one I own), both formats work fine. This is probably true of many. Any Blu-ray playing media player is going to understand the AVCHD/Blu-ray file formats, if it allows playing simple files (most do) as well as full AVCHD/Blu-ray formats (which includes all sorts of extra data).
What’s you’re going to find is that most Blu-ray authoring program, like DVD Architect, want to see an elemental stream (eg, an .avc file as produced by Vegas). There’s a long history of this in such tools, largely because standards like DVD and Blu-ray build up from other pieces. When DVD came out, no one had support for building AC-3 multichannel audio into an MPEG file, since these came out of different standards bodies. So authoring tools pretty much like to keep their assets separate. When you select MPEG-2 TS output, you won’t be able to select Blu-ray AVC anymore.. but that doesn’t really matter. The AVC settings themselves, at least for a 16Mb/s video, are going to be the same whether you’re rendering to Blu-ray or rendering to AVCHD.
So if you’re after a single file that’ll play on some media players and still allow you to make Blu-ray (or AVCHD DVD) discs in the future, this is a decent choice, if the quality is high enough for you. You can drop one of these AVCHD m2ts files into a DVD Architect video project and no AVC re-rendering is needed. Of course, you’re limited to 16Mb/s (which is probably due to the restriction of AVCHD to not go over 18Mb/s on disc, since Blu-ray players only guarantee 2x DVD playback speed… you should be able to set higher bitrate for AVC on Blu-ray or flash memory).
-Dave
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