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Multi track audio editing in Vegas Pro-10 issues
I have been using Vegas mainly as a Multi track editor for audio.. Kind of like how folks use pro-tools and I’m hearing some disturbing characteristics in the audio when I mix..
Perhaps I can explain how I work .. I have a recording studio that has the Sony DMXr-100 as a console and I track everything to my Alesis HD24. I have ADAT cards in the Sony which transfer the audio back and forth to the HD24 Via the light pipes… I know I have very clean tracks from the studio, through the board to the HD24. I do not track with EQ or compression (usually recording acoustic styles of music).
Once I finish tracking a project I digitally from the HD24 hard drives to my computer using the Alesis fireport, again, staying all in the digital domain.. I record at 44.1 Khz and tracking to the HD24 which stores in 24bit all audio.. Once I move my the files to my computer I start my editing, creating a project and import all the files across the tracks to the Vegas Audio Editor.. and the files sound great, just like on the hd24.. then things happen and I do not know why.. so hopefully someone can look at this and let me know what I am doing wrong.
I have a house clock running everything digital and I can see everything locking just fine…
My main edits consist of cleaning up the tracks, lining up vocals just the normal stuff… I do not add EQ, I do not add any effects to the tracks. From time to time, I’ll do a quick mix to a 2 track file for reference, but that’s’ about it.. it usually sounds fine….
Since I love mixing on the console I render each of the tracks .. since the files were 44.1 @24bit when I brought them in I have been rendering each individual file using the render function and set up a 44.1 @24bit mono option to use for these tracks. I can have up to 24 tracks of audio but in most cases I find 16 is about all I use. Once I render the files, I just transfer the files from the computer (after rendering) via the Alesis fire port back to the Alesis Hard drive as a new song.. all edited tracks are moved back (very fast) to the Alesis hard drive for my mix.. That’s where things start to sound a bit “Fuzzy” and I have been unable to find any info as to why… (even Sony has not been able to come up with an answer)..
If there is anyone out here that uses Vegas in a similar work mode I’d like to hear from you .. here are some of my questions..
1. am I correct in selecting render as when I want to render an edited audio track (there is no save as like Sony Soundforge).. so, my concern is the render process creating a problem … the tracks after rendering them seem to lose resolution or definition and it really starts to show up as I add a little EQ and then start to bring up multiple files in the mix. It seems like there is something going on when rendering the tracks and they sound thinner and loose depth..
I love Vegas, although I’m wondering if my tracks are getting screwed up when I render the file to a new file/track? I know my clock is solid It is a Lucid clock in a star configuration and as I have said everything seems to be locking just fine!
My sound card in my computer is a Lynx one and I connect to and from the board digitally via the AES-EBU…. from what lynx said is that the AES-EBU locks in to the system when playing tracks or mix’s on the computer…..
I am just finishing a gospel project, Bass, Guitar, Banjo and Dobro and I just feel that my edits in Vegas have compromised my original tracks… The best way I can describe it is they sound “fuzzy” and before I do a bunch more of this I thought I’d ask here and see if anyone here has a similar issue… ..
Am I correct in choosing the option to render 44.1 @24bit… Is there a safer way to render the edited tracks?
Hopefully someone out here works with audio and has some suggestions and or ideas of what I am doing or not doing
Thanks in advance.
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6 Replies
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Hi Dave,
I too use my HD24 for tracking and transfer my tracks to my PC for editing…but I also mix with Vegas. I use a couple of BRCs to control my HD24 so I leave my tracks at 48Khz since I use the BRC as my clock. The HD24 syncs great to the BRC at 48Khz but people have had problems when using 44.1.Have you tried tracking at 48khz 24 bit? Just curious, you might try keeping your tracks at 48 and see if you can tell a difference. I can’t imagine why your tracks would alter if you’re not putting any FX on them.
Let us know what you find out…I’d be curious to know.
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ASUS P8P67 Deluxe MB
EVGA GeForce GTX 560 Ti 1 GB DDR 5
Intel i7 2600k 3.4 Ghz
Corsair HX750 power supply
Two Seagate Barracuda 500g SATA III drives
16 Gig G.Skill Ripjaws DDR3 1600
Canopus ACEDVio card
Thermaltake V9 BlacX Edition case
Xigmatek Dark Knight CPU Cooler
Win 7 Pro
VEGAS 8.0
VEGAS 11.0 32 & 64 bit
Sony VX2100
Sony HVR-Z7U
Sony HDR-CX130
Alesis HD24 -
Ted, thanks for the reply… I started recording years ago when the ADATS were known as blackface and were 16 bit.., went to the 20bit xt when they came out and got the HD24 the first week they were introduced by Alesis.. ( I was told I got the first one sold in the USA)…. I love it, I actually have 2 of them and they have been bullet proof..
I use to track everything at 48k but the hassle with everything digital and having to take everything to 44.1 in the end I just decided to track at 44.1 … I bought the house clock years ago and every has been just fine and locking with that..
I also have a BRC but quit using it, I just do not need it in my set up … actually if you use a house clock, set the BRC to external sync the BRC and recorders will lock to it just fine.. you do loose the display .. but, I’m not using it right now..
When I record everything is fine, when I play back the tracks with the HD24 through the console, every thing seems fine.. When I move the tracks (digitally with the fireport not the optical cables) to the computer it seems fine.. it is after I edit and clean up the tracks (removing noise, lining up vocals exec) and then “Render As” a new 44.1 24bit mono file to go back to the HD 24 does the track seem changed.
I am wondering (and Sony has been unable to answer me) if when you have a file (44.1 mono 24 bit) and edit it in Vegas then Render it what is it doing .. there is no reason for it to convert the files at all .. they are already 44.1 24 bit and all I do is some light edits.. I do not use any FX I would think it should not affect the files … There is no Save as feature like in Soundforge… but you have to render to a new track each file one edited…
It is a mystery to me what is happening.. and until I find out what is going on… I am going to think twice about editing at this point.. it really seemed to affect the sound of the instruments this time…
Hopefully someone on here will be doing a similar operation with Vegas and chime in on what they hear.. or what Vegas actually does when it renders..
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Dave, I do pretty much the same thing as you as far as bouncing tracks back and forth from the HD24. I have a FirePort, but I have been using one of those ViPower Super Racks for a while now, which is USB and does the same thing. It’s just easier for me, nothing to hook up, just slide the caddy in the rack and transfer files.
I’ve edited tracks in Vegas and transferred them back to the HD24 and have never experienced anything like you are describing. Then again, I always track at 48K. Not sure why or if that makes a difference.
I too still have my original blackface ADAT. I bought mine when they first came out along with the BRC. I actually started multitrack recording on a TEAC 1/4″ 4 track recorder in the late 70’s…then moved up to a Fostex B16 1/2″ machine and used it for several years before switching to digital with the ADAT.
Just out of curiosity, you might try recording a track using the internal clock of the recorder…transfer it to Vegas and back to the HD24 and see if you still have the problem. You might even try it first at 44.1K then again at 48K and see if there’s a difference.
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ASUS P8P67 Deluxe MB
EVGA GeForce GTX 560 Ti 1 GB DDR 5
Intel i7 2600k 3.4 Ghz
Corsair HX750 power supply
Two Seagate Barracuda 500g SATA III drives
16 Gig G.Skill Ripjaws DDR3 1600
Canopus ACEDVio card
Thermaltake V9 BlacX Edition case
Xigmatek Dark Knight CPU Cooler
Win 7 Pro
VEGAS 8.0
VEGAS 11.0 32 & 64 bit
Sony VX2100
Sony HVR-Z7U
Sony HDR-CX130
Alesis HD24 -
Good Morning Ted.. sounds like we have allot in common for sure 🙂 I started recording in the 70’s also while going to college, I could not afford a console so I designed, bread boarded and built my own 8 channel mixer on my kitchen table.. my brother in law cut up some lumber and I used a piece of lexan as the top… I purchased some nice 4″ Vu meters… it looked real 🙂 st the time I used an old 2 track Dokorder reel to reel. In the early 80’s I purchased a Tascam 8 track cassette recorder.. that was fun then found the ADAT’s
I am going to get in to the set up this week and try several changes and see what might be happening. ON this particular project I had allot of editing to do (not my norm) and every time I edited the track of course you have to render to.. perhaps I screwed something up there… This is the first time that it was so noticeable … I have all the Veg files and original files on the computer still I may even go back and look at the history …
I do know that the clock on the HD24 is off (very, very slightly) at 44.1, but feeding it a clock from my Lucid System clock should put it right on…like I said, I feed all my digital gear with the same clock…
My problem with the complete digital set up is that if I clock at 48k and everything is sync’d together that when I re sample to 44.1 and try to play it back I have to change my whole system to 44.1 to listen.. (of course my other option would to be is to hook up a Analog connection to the board and listen that way…. but I think the computer is still locked at 48k if I do that…. Sometime I just wish I had stayed all analog..
Where aer you located Ted… I am in the Nashville area..
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Dave, I’m located in Eureka Springs, AR. You have some great and fun history in your story! I know what you mean about analog…I had my old B16 biased for Ampex 499 tape and it sounded amazing, most people couldn’t believe how clean it sounded. I have an old HP duel trace oscilloscope and kept that machine in tip top alignment…and it did sound good for 16 track 1/2″.
That’s one of the nice perks of digital…no alignments or adjustments every month or so to check that everything is top shape. I know my mixes sounded better when I mixed through my analog console…I have one of the first Mackie 32×8. But mixing in the box is just so handy with having total automation in Vegas by hitting the “save” button 🙂 .
I have four of the Niche ACMs (audio control module) which I used for automation back when mixing analog. They are really nice and transparent, but you’re limited to volume and mute and that’s it.
Being able to pull up a mix 6 months later in Vegas and it be exactly as you had it including all FX is pretty nice.It will be interesting to see what you come up with as far as the problem you’re experiencing. When I edit a track and “render as” then put it back to the HD24 it has always been fine…then again I’m monitoring out of my HD24 analog. I track and monitor analog in and out of the HD24. Do some experimenting when you get the chance and let us know your findings.
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ASUS P8P67 Deluxe MB
EVGA GeForce GTX 560 Ti 1 GB DDR 5
Intel i7 2600k 3.4 Ghz
Corsair HX750 power supply
Two Seagate Barracuda 500g SATA III drives
16 Gig G.Skill Ripjaws DDR3 1600
Canopus ACEDVio card
Thermaltake V9 BlacX Edition case
Xigmatek Dark Knight CPU Cooler
Win 7 Pro
VEGAS 8.0
VEGAS 11.0 32 & 64 bit
Sony VX2100
Sony HVR-Z7U
Sony HDR-CX130
Alesis HD24 -
Evening Ted… Well, I was talking to a guy the other day that said he had a 1″ 16 track machine he has had for year that he might sell.. if he does and it’s reasonable I may have to pick it up…
I’ve never had a mult-track analog machine (other than an old Tascam 2340 which I still have .. After my Dokorder and then my Tascam I went to my ADATS.. I started with a soundcraft 16 track analog board, moved to a Mackie 2408 (which thinking back, sounded great).. from there I went to a Yamaha 02r and finally the Sony DMXr100.. For some reason I just cant get the hang of mixing in the box.. for some reason I just need the faders …
I’ve used Soundforge for years as a 2 track editor and mix to it for my masters..
I should start to get use to Vegas for more mixing Im not sure what I would do if the console dies, they took the DMXr100 off the market years ago.. the guys at Sony are still great on Tech Support, but the parts will start to get hard to find and very expensive… Maybe I’ll just retire 🙂
We live just east of Nashville and love it.. but, with all the musicians in town it seems like there is a studio on every corner.. and the market is fairly tough…
I’m trying to get this project finished up I am working on, once that is finished I can do a little investigation on what is going on… I’ll post more when I get some info..
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